Cross Country : the worst TOC?

[Techniquest]

Shows how little you've used AXC then ol' boy 8) Being a Voyager basher as well as a HST basher, I use AXC far more than the average forum member does it would appear. Not that I have lately, but that's for reasons I don't need to go into.

As for the headphones, they started in 2005 (when I first noticed them at least) at £2 then got jacked up to £2.50 in more recent times. It was uncommon for the radios to work, but not impossible. If they didn't work, it was a case of speaking to the TM. Did it once when I got up to go to the buffet on a Oxford to Leamington Spa move. The shop manager (whatever they were called) phoned the TM on board and got them to switch them on. By the time I returned, after expressing thanks for the favour - I'd got no portable audio with me at the time so needed something to do - my seat was gone. So I stood for the last 10 minutes to Leamington.

Which brings me onto another point, the staff with AXC seem much less happy now than they did with Virgin.

I'll be back on here tomorrow probably now with the statistics I promised.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

dont know about staff happiness myself.

I've only been on over 20 AXC trips so far (well more than 20, dont know exact figure yet) but I think its the same level with Virgin TBH, never had rubbish problems either at least. The best thing I like about voyagers is the shape, style and the Cummins engines

 

[Techniquest]

Right, well I got around to adding it all up. Out of 67 journies with AXC this year thus far, only 37 of them were on time. The least delay suffered was one minute (we even managed that on 9S66 once!), the highest being the 119 minutes quoted earlier. Should anyone wish to see which services were delayed, dates and motive power I'd be happy to provide these details.

It is about 55% of my journies with AXC that have been on time then. Pathetic.

 

[williamn]

I read somewhere in the railway press that they have sometimes cut out stops to make up time, in some cases meaning passengers have had to travel beyond their destination and then go back?

 

[caughtonatrain]

heart-of-wessex: "Never really use the shop so thats not a loss to me either."

Forgive me, but that is the sort of short-sighted, me-first attitude that will kill the railways off.

Basically, if the rail network is to grow and thrive, it needs to compete against the flexibility of the car and the speed of the plane. It does so by providing a unique offer - faster than the car, more flexible than the plane, and more comfortable than either. A big part of the comfort and flexibility factor is the provision of on train catering. Not everybody that travels on the trains is a basher and has the time to prepare a thermos and some soggy sarnies. They've got to be attractive to the business traveller and the holidaymaker (as well as the student, the pensioner, etc) and that means proper catering. NXEC have got it right: buffet, restaurant AND trolly. EMT is not bad. AXC is pretty pathetic, they run the longest routes and they're cutting back? Crazy. I travel varied AXC patterns many times a week and they're always sardine cans - a trolly's not got a chance most of the day and much of the evening.

 

[digitaltoast]

1. Do you REALLY think that a trolley is ever going to be as good as a shop/buffet? The trolley can't keep drinks (or indeed chocolate and other things that melt) cool, it can't do 'proper' coffees, only rubbish instant ones, it can't do hot food, and, as williamn has said, they can't carry much stock. I recently traveled on an NXEC service which had no buffet, and the quality of the offers was completely inferior on the trolley. And, as has already been said, trolleys will never get through congested trains, shame most XC services seem to be like this!

2. The Virgin Voyagers tend to be in much better condition than the XC Voyagers generally, or at least that's what I find.

3. You would rather spend several hours in a vibrating, fairly uncomfortable and claustrophobic environment on a Voyager? Well, whatever floats your boat I guess!

I'm pretty sure that 175fan was either trolling, playing devils advocate, or has never, ever suffered a voyager!

I can authoritatively answer the headphone question - I have the reply here!
Apparently, they have removed the radio "because most people have mp3 players these days".
Um....er....I'm still trying to compose the reply 3 months later, because how do you reply to someone obviously so mentally defective they don't know the difference between radio and mp3? Or don't realise that a Voyager is the most efficient method of blocking any radio signal (FM or mobile) known to man?

As far as the buffet goes - well, I paid my extra fiver to go First class for the first (and last!) time having calculated that the snackery (especially sandwich!) would offset the difference. No sandwiches - but there they were, right in front of me! "Sorry, but those are retail sandwiches, they forgot to give us any complimentary sandwiches at Reading". She then gave me a WARM thimble-sized can of coke instead.

I've fired off a quick letter asking for a refund between the 1st and standard prices, mainly making the point that if THEY stuff up, surely THEY should take the hit and give the retail sandwiches out! I'll let you know how it goes.

ALWAYS worth complaining though - just before Virgin lost the XC route, I wrote and complained about the Voyager's toilets and lack of working headphone sockets: result = £25 voucher.
I wrote again a few months after XC had taken over, this time about the general state, noise, and lack of working headphone sockets.
This time, I got the above comical mp3 reply, plus £10 voucher.

 

[LilLoaf]

Since AXC started i used them about 65 times. The longest delay i have had was just over an hour (floods in Scotland). There are some things that i have noticed:

Shop is not open after 19.30.
For some reason the 6.05 Edinburgh - Plymouth is very often late.
Annoucments onboard are very short and sweet. It useful to know if the shop is at the front/ rear, where 1st class is, which coach is quiet zone (not for me but for people who dont use it a lot) annoucements tend to just be for example " this is a XC service to Bristol callen ____ _____ ____ due it 14.11. i not saying go on about the shop and facilities after all stations just he main ones.

apparently they also miss out stops aswell. The latest one is if a train coming off bournemouth into Reading is over 45 mins late, it runs non stop to Birmingham, passengers for Oxford, Banbury, Leamington, change at Reading onto XX40 trains. any1 for Birmingham intl, Coventry change Birmingham.

 

[P156KWJ]

Ah, my mistake there. I always thought that they were more than that.

Still though, I've never had a working radio on a Voyager, and very, very few on Pendos.

I never had a problem on voyagers (never tried on 390s), except the time when the controls were broken and it was jammed on full blast on 'Virgin kidz'

 

[heart-of-wessex]

heart-of-wessex: "Never really use the shop so thats not a loss to me either."

Forgive me, but that is the sort of short-sighted, me-first attitude that will kill the railways off.

Sorry I was just stating my view on my opinion.

Remember Im not just a basher (not that I do that anymore) I don't have a car, don't use planes, and travel on Buses or Trains for any reason, but irrelavent to if its a bash or to see someone/get somewhere I bring sarnies etc most of the time as its cheaper, thats all.


Also, My freind had problems and starting ranting about AXC, ok apparently he was told the service was late due to a late running on the service before (and it started at Derby apparently, at 18:00 on a tuesday night??) and was looped at Charfield, even a freight overtook. But really, the looping thing would have been NRs fault surely? since they are the ones you signal routes etc...


Cheers,

James.

 

[Techniquest]

I can authoritatively answer the headphone question - I have the reply here!
Apparently, they have removed the radio "because most people have mp3 players these days".
Um....er....I'm still trying to compose the reply 3 months later, because how do you reply to someone obviously so mentally defective they don't know the difference between radio and mp3? Or don't realise that a Voyager is the most efficient method of blocking any radio signal (FM or mobile) known to man?

I'd be tempted to tell them that while a lot of us have MP3 players these days, we don't always have them with us or we might be out of batteries. Therefore, having the option of having the radio is still handy. Besides, some people don't have MP3 players because they don't like them and prefer to listen to the radio. As you identify, there's no chance of getting a radio signal on a Voyager. Getting a signal on your mobile is hard enough, if not nigh-on impossible over much of the XC network, to the extent that it's a shock to get signal!

As far as the buffet goes - well, I paid my extra fiver to go First class for the first (and last!) time having calculated that the snackery (especially sandwich!) would offset the difference. No sandwiches - but there they were, right in front of me! "Sorry, but those are retail sandwiches, they forgot to give us any complimentary sandwiches at Reading".

I'd have told her that was not good enough, that there should be something else offered instead.

She then gave me a WARM thimble-sized can of coke instead.

Sadly TOCs don't chill their bottles or cans of soft drinks, yet they make sure they do with the beer. Which seems like a stupid idea. I rarely buy a warm bottle/can of soft drink in a shop and I would expect there to be some cold drinks on the train. If there was no facility to do so (such as on 158s or 170s), then that's a different kettle of fish but on a HST or Voyager this is not the case.

I've fired off a quick letter asking for a refund between the 1st and standard prices, mainly making the point that if THEY stuff up, surely THEY should take the hit and give the retail sandwiches out! I'll let you know how it goes.

I should think they'd refund you if you had your ticket marked 'No Service Received' (as happens for FC passengers when FC is declassified). However I doubt this happened. They might still do it, but I wouldn't count on it.

ALWAYS worth complaining though - just before Virgin lost the XC route, I wrote and complained about the Voyager's toilets and lack of working headphone sockets: result = £25 voucher.
I wrote again a few months after XC had taken over, this time about the general state, noise, and lack of working headphone sockets.
This time, I got the above comical mp3 reply, plus £10 voucher.

I agree it's usually worth complaining. Even if you don't get anything back, the TOCs need to know what they're doing wrong (even if it's blantantly obvious, they don't seem to notice until someone points it out). More so if you've got nasty staff, then it needs to be done so they get bollocked.

Still waiting for my reply from AXC myself, been 8 days since it went off. I'm giving it another week then I'll e-mail them to ask them what they're up to. Even Virgin got back to you within a week.

 

[P156KWJ]

XC took ages to reply. I sent them a letter on the 25th August and they got back yesterday

 

[Techniquest]

Oh right, I'll expect a reply sometime after the first...

...IEP goes into service...

 

[P156KWJ]

EWS are taking the p*** to reply about work experience

 

[Max]

As far as the buffet goes - well, I paid my extra fiver to go First class for the first (and last!) time having calculated that the snackery (especially sandwich!) would offset the difference. No sandwiches - but there they were, right in front of me! "Sorry, but those are retail sandwiches, they forgot to give us any complimentary sandwiches at Reading". She then gave me a WARM thimble-sized can of coke instead.

I can confirm that the first class service with XC is abysmal. I recently travelled from Plymouth-Sheffield on a Saturday. I was cautious about booking first class for a weekend journey, because previously with Virgin the service was pretty much non-existent on Saturdays and Sundays. However, I had heard that the offerings had been much improved, and did some research on the XC website. A full hot sandwich menu was advertised, with absolutely no mention of the fact that it was limited to Monday-Friday. It mentioned that there would be no at seat service outside the week, but that refreshments could be collected from the shop. All I got in first was a couple of fun-size cans of coke and a few biscuits. I note that the website has been amended, probably due to the many complaints which the train manager said he received 'every weekend'.

 

[class 313]

But hey, at least they're usually on time. More than FGW can say!

Get off that bandwagon. Also I have found AXC more delayed than fGW!

 

[Techniquest]

w00p, not just me who's had worse experience with AXC than with FGW! When I get around to it later (or tomorrow when I'll be bored on the bus into Hereford) I'll count up how many trips I've had with FGW this year and how many were delayed, so we can have some sort of comparison with the figures I quoted for my trips with AXC. When I get home tomorrow evening, I'll post them then. I highly doubt the percentage of on-time trains with FGW (for my trips) will be lower than 55% as with AXC...

EDIT: w00t... 4,300 posts as of this one!

 

[williamn]

My experience with FGW lately suggest they have really upped their game, both in terms of punctuality and customer service. I've been pretty impressed.

 

[class 313]

My experience with FGW lately suggest they have really upped their game, both in terms of punctuality and customer service. I've been pretty impressed.

Indeed, I agree. I was quite happy when travelling with them lately down to BTM.

 

[BlueGrey]

Damn bloody straight. I have to say if it weren't for the HSTs this summer I'd have not travelled with AXC anywhere near as much as I have done.

Gizmogle says on the first page they're usually on time...

*cough* *splutter* *coughs again* *chucks up hairball* *clears throat*

Right, what was I saying? Oh yes, AXC? On time? AAA?! Since when? Out of all the AXC moves I've been on this year, I reckon only 60% of them have been on time. The worst delay I've suffered so far with them would be a 119 minutes delay on the Newcastle to Cardiff Voyager on 29th August 2008 (obviously caped at Bristol Temple Meads). Quite, it's the biggest delay I've had this year with any TOC so far. I'll find some statistics to back this up later when I dig out my moves book.

175fan: I'm surprised you prefer to go on a Voyager over a HST. Seems a slightly bizarre idea to me, but there we go.

LilLoaf: If you could forward via PM a copy of that bit you've wrote on the comparative journies I'd be interested in reading it. It's well known I didn't like Arriva taking over XC (if it wasn't before, it soon will be!) and I don't like their ****-poor attitude to timekeeping, the flithy state of some of the trains (granted I've seen cleaning staff going up and down the Voyagers now and again but nothing on the scale of Virgin's cleaning) inside and out, the abysmal lack of information they convey to passengers on their services, their complete lack of contact when you complain to them (I'm still awaiting some sort of reply after I complained about the 119 minutes delay on that Newcastle to Cardiff Central Voyager. AXC were not directly responsible, but it was still the fault of the railway) which doesn't help restore any faith from me in them.

I swear it wasn't this bad when it was with Virgin...

I could rant on for hours about AXC, but I'll leave it as the above for now.

While It looks like you have certainly travelled on a few late XC services I think timekeeping has improved since Arriva took over. I can't quote any figures as I only take a passing interest in punctuality but passenger charter figures are displayed at most major stations. Arriva Cross Countrys Punctuality on these posters has been quite impressive lately while Virgins has been horrendous. As far as I am aware Arriva has steadily increased punctuality since taking over from Virgin.

 

[devon_metro]

My personal experience as a passenger would suggest more trains are late and severely over-crowded. 4 car Vomit on Saturday Bank Holiday Manchester-Paignton ?:?

What the hell!

 

[LilLoaf]

Hi Liam -
Which weekend was the 4 car set on that Manchester - Paignton its suppost to be a 5 car set or before timetable change its suppost to be a HST.

Was there a set swap at New Street ?

 

[devon_metro]

It was a 4 car set on 23/08

I don't know why it was 4 car, I boarded at Weston Super Mare and due to the gross overcrowding decided to get off at Taunton before continuing my journey to Paignton on a comfortable FGW train. A number of the passengers were faint on the train. Standing in the toilets was also happening!

 

[P156KWJ]

My personal experience as a passenger would suggest more trains are late and severely over-crowded. 4 car Vomit on Saturday Bank Holiday Manchester-Paignton ?:?

What the hell!

Echoes what was on the services the day of then Leeds music festival - a 4 car voyager on a Bristol-Edinburgh train, I was quite literally wedged against the toilet door surrounded by festival goers with crates of carling and massive suitcases. The TM wasn't at all nice either "This is the XX:XX service to Edinburgh, calling at XXXX. This is a busy train (really?!) so please keep all aisles free of luggage to facilitate movement around the train, and luggage will NOT be peritted to be stowed in the gangways". Well then, maybe some extra luggage space?

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I have seen alot of FGW delays that ive had, more than AXC! even the first train ever out of BTM of the day was delayed, twice! The HST side of FGW isnt tooo bad, not een in a full and standing First Class coach on a voyager yet but have done on the first train off paddington to Penzance, coaches F-H were full and standing in all spaces after Didcot!!

 

[Techniquest]

While It looks like you have certainly travelled on a few late XC services I think timekeeping has improved since Arriva took over. I can't quote any figures as I only take a passing interest in punctuality but passenger charter figures are displayed at most major stations. Arriva Cross Countrys Punctuality on these posters has been quite impressive lately while Virgins has been horrendous. As far as I am aware Arriva has steadily increased punctuality since taking over from Virgin.

Please note that the PPM figures are not overly fussy. So long as the train reaches its destination within 10 minutes of its booked time then it's still officially on time by their rules!

Now, I'm sorry but TEN minutes late by the booked time, classed as on-time? Not by the rest of the world!

Please also note that I am fussy and will record every single minute of delay. I've been known to even count a 30-seconds-late departure as a delay. Not often, but I've some of those in my moves book.

If a Voyager arrives at its destination (let's say Plymouth) at 2052 against the booked 2044 arrival time, then it is counted as arriving 8 minutes late, irrespective of anything else. Under the PPM, this is for some reason still on time.:-?

I do not believe Arriva have improved punctuality that much. As my records prove. You can prove anything with statistics.

Anyway, I said yesterday that I reckon my trips with FGW could not result in a worse percentage than AXC. Indeed, I was of the belief things had improved considerably and I've had nicer journies with them than I have done in the past.

Well, after I eventually got off the laptop, I got my moves book out. The numbers disappoint me. Please note, however, these statistics only refer to FGW HSS, not FGW Local. This is because it would result in a less fair comparison to AXC, this way both Inter-City operations can be compared without combining local journies with the FGW statistics. Like I say, the numbers disappoint though.

Out of 105 FGW HSS moves I've done this year to date, only 51 of these were on time. Obviously this means I've had 62 late-running services with FGW HSS. This results in a very disappointing figure of just 48.5% of these runs being on-time.:cry:

 

[The 158 Man]

I had the misfortune of travelling on a XC Voyager from Sheffield to York this evening. It was filthy (internally), had a nasty aroma and had no seats available - standing room only. I wasn't very happy about that (but then who would be?!) :roll:

On the plus side, the staff were very nice, informative, smart and clean.

AND it was on time!

 

[me123]

I've only been on XC a few times, but they've been pretty great despite the obvious issues where Voyagers are concerned. However, that's always been Motherwell-Edinburgh on the 0914 to Penzance (which now terminates at Plymouth) so not really a fair representation of the company.

I'd like to go further south with them, but I have neither the time nor the money

 

[djw1981]

My personal experience as a passenger would suggest more trains are late and severely over-crowded. 4 car Vomit on Saturday Bank Holiday Manchester-Paignton ?:?

What the hell!

Any train on a Bank Holiday is busy though, especially with engineering work.

 

[bluenoxid]

Surely a lot of the criticism is due to the previous operator and the current rolling stock shortage nationally than AXC. I think the way AXC have dealt with things they can control such as fares have been done badly, but criticising their rolling stock when there is literally nothing they can do about it, is ridiculous.

 

[91101]

Techniquest, your method of recording delay and seamingly attributing this to the TOC's performance is a pretty poor methodology.

Firstly, in terms of the Track Access Agreement with NWR, neither party is accountable for delays below 3 mins anyway, and any individual loss in running, late start or station overtime of 1 or 2 mins are just dismissed as unexplained. It is almost impossible to find a route cause to the delay in these cases.

Trains, and the railway system are ran by human beings with human limitiations, and delay can, and will happen, a driver may apply defensive driving techniques, or a signal could be pulled off a few seconds too late and the driver will have a cautionary aspect and start braking for it before getting back to line speed, a train could be replatformed causing it to have to negoiate an extra set of points on the approach to a station, there could also be a (planned) discrepancy between the WTT arrival time, and the GBTT arrival or departure time.

I am not seeking to defend XC per se, infact, I am not the biggest fan of what Arrvia is doing with the franchise, but to "blame" them, or infact any TOC for every moment of lateness is failing to understand that the railways are a real, live, operational environment with two main parties involved, the TOC and NWR, not to mention the various different elements within those parties, and then the whole external environment from weather to the public, to the half naked Girl in the back garden causing emergency brake applications