Cross Country : the worst TOC?

[williamn]

It seems to me that Crosscountry is hell bent on becoming the most reviled TOC, opting for an Ryanair approach to providing a service, cutting away everything but the actual seat!

- removing the shop (how this is acceptable on 7hr+ journeys I have no idea)
- removing catering Penzance - Plymouth and Edinburgh - Aberdeen (up to 3 hours) (announced apoligetically as 'due to XC's staffing policy there will be no buffet facility')
- removing at seat audio
- being reprimanded by advertising standards for promoting fares that weren't available.

In addition the two XC services I have traveled on recently have been filthy, suggesting they have cut back on cleaning.

What do others think?

 

[mrcheek]

theyre bringing back the HSTs. so frankly, apart from that, they can do whatever they like and I will love them.

 

[Gizmogle]

I agree with mrcheek. Yay HSTs!

But yeah, I have noticed that the Voyagers have been getting into a bit of a mess recently.

The at seat audio has never worked for me. I've heard advertisments for headphones to use with the at seat audio. People come back with their £8 (IIRC) headphones only to find out that the audio doesn't work at all. This is a good move in my opinion and will stop people wasting their money.

I rarely use the buffet service, but I think that taking it away is ridiculous. Would they be able to send a trolley down? If not, then I guess people are going to be jumping off at intermediate stations in a dash to find food before the train leaves again.

But hey, at least they're usually on time. More than FGW can say!

 

[Royston Vasey]

theyre bringing back the HSTs. so frankly, apart from that, they can do whatever they like and I will love them.

Much as I love travelling on HSTs above any other train, it sounds to me like their treatment of their customers (and possibly their trains too) is nothing short of disgraceful. Some on here need to lose the rose-tinted spectacles :roll:

 

[jv3531]

I don't think its just cross country that it affects - most of the companies have had problems at one time or another with lack of staff, low morale, crazy ideas that we know wont work etc. - if you can remember a few years ago we were all saying the same thing when virgin introduced voyagers etc. One of the main problems is lack of funding, railways in some other countries have vast amounts of financial support with things like engineering they just shut the whole line down and do it in one go.

Some of the problems here is that at times we as travelling public do expect sometimes to much - yes we want the work to be done but, we don't want the work to inconvienience us. So when does it get done? Overnight? Weekends? The list continues then into who does it effect and so on. Other problems are fares - walk on fares are exceptionally high in some areas which drives people off the network - something which realy could do with changing. Lower your fares and more will travel! I no myself I would rather pay £30 for a day out to london or somewhere than be stuck with £70 plus if I went before 9 in the week!

All of the above factors affect companies at some point during there life span and then its down to the company that takes over the franchise to pick up the pieces. Even the voyagers still suffer - Dawlish springs to mind, how many still fail when attacked by high tides along the sea wall!

 

[43106]

In my view, XC (be it Virgin or Arriva) went down the tubes when they got these God-awful Voyagers. They should NEVER have got rid of the HSTs. It has to be said that I've been on more HSTs that Voyagers, but that's been by design than accident. I find Voyagers slow, very uncomfortable (my bum gets numb on their seats. Believe me, pins and needles in your buttocks and immediately adjacent naughty bits are embarassingly painful!!!!!), woefully small and noisy. The buffet/shop area takes up far too much room, which is somewhat irksome when there are standing passengers. The HST is a train, whereas a Voyager is a (debateably) upgraded bug-cart!

 

[Up Carriage Liner]

43106: Did you say that your nautghty bits are "woefully small" are have I just got confused with your punctuation?

Seriously, though, you are not alone in your praise of HSTs. Just finished reading Stanley Hall's Railway Milestones and Millstones and noted his comment in the final chapter:

And finally, what stands out as one of the true highlights of railway history? It is the High Speed Train - a great engineering and commercial success, designed and built by British Rail engineers in BR workshops and exploited by BR businesses. Yes, there were some problems with the fleet, but passengers love these trains, and that is the key factor. There ought to have been more of them..........​

 

[xc170]

- removing the shop (how this is acceptable on 7hr+ journeys I have no idea)
- removing catering Penzance - Plymouth and Edinburgh - Aberdeen (up to 3 hours) (announced apoligetically as 'due to XC's staffing policy there will be no buffet facility')
- removing at seat audio
- being reprimanded by advertising standards for promoting fares that weren't available.

In addition the two XC services I have traveled on recently have been filthy, suggesting they have cut back on cleaning.

What do others think?

I think you havent really thourght about what you have wrote,

- removing the shop (how this is acceptable on 7hr+ journeys I have no idea)
They have invested in new trolleys (designed in stoke)

- removing at seat audio
You will probobly find that virgin made them remove it, anyway who dosent have an MP3 player, ipod or phone with radio on it thease days?

In addition the two XC services I have traveled on recently have been filthy, suggesting they have cut back on cleaning.
You cant really blame XC for this try blaming the other passangers, i travel on XC services regualy and ive only noticed a few newspapers and empty bottles left on the train, I think you will find Virgin were no better if you think about it

RE: HST's v Voyagers, definitly voyagers there clean and comfatable.

Adam

 

[yorkie]

- removing at seat audio
You will probobly find that virgin made them remove it, anyway who dosent have an MP3 player, ipod or phone with radio on it thease days?

Source? What's it got to do with Virgin? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering.

Oh and no-one mentioned their abysmal ticketing policies including restricting CDRs (now Off Peak Day returns) and the way they described the change was misleading at best.

 

[devon_metro]

But hey, at least they're usually on time. More than FGW can say!

I'm rarely delayed on FGW and the XC trains I use are late :?

Considering the ratio of FGW vs XC train is travel on...

 

[gordonthemoron]

EMT are far worse than XC

 

[williamn]

Trolleys will never be able to carry the range of stock a buffet can and run out of stock very quickly. In addition they block up the aisles and on a busy train you can be waiting ages for it to visit. If I'm on a long journey I expect to be able to get refreshments when I want them and to get hot food (just had fantastic lunch on FGW restaurant)

On the cleaning front - the trains I travelled on didn't have litter - just ground-in dirt in the carpets, filthy trays etc - and this was the first train of the day out of Penzance. They clearly hadn't been deep cleaned for a long time.

 

[Max]

I think you havent really thourght about what you have wrote,

- removing the shop (how this is acceptable on 7hr+ journeys I have no idea)
They have invested in new trolleys (designed in stoke)

- removing at seat audio
You will probobly find that virgin made them remove it, anyway who dosent have an MP3 player, ipod or phone with radio on it thease days?

In addition the two XC services I have traveled on recently have been filthy, suggesting they have cut back on cleaning.
You cant really blame XC for this try blaming the other passangers, i travel on XC services regualy and ive only noticed a few newspapers and empty bottles left on the train, I think you will find Virgin were no better if you think about it

RE: HST's v Voyagers, definitly voyagers there clean and comfatable.

Adam

1. Do you REALLY think that a trolley is ever going to be as good as a shop/buffet? The trolley can't keep drinks (or indeed chocolate and other things that melt) cool, it can't do 'proper' coffees, only rubbish instant ones, it can't do hot food, and, as williamn has said, they can't carry much stock. I recently traveled on an NXEC service which had no buffet, and the quality of the offers was completely inferior on the trolley. And, as has already been said, trolleys will never get through congested trains, shame most XC services seem to be like this!

2. The Virgin Voyagers tend to be in much better condition than the XC Voyagers generally, or at least that's what I find.

3. You would rather spend several hours in a vibrating, fairly uncomfortable and claustrophobic environment on a Voyager? Well, whatever floats your boat I guess!

 

[Mojo]

How many of the above 'complaints' are due to Government policy?

 

[devon_metro]

Source? What's it got to do with Virgin? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering.

Oh and no-one mentioned their abysmal ticketing policies including restricting CDRs (now Off Peak Day returns) and the way they described the change was misleading at best.

Believe the system is patented to Virmin or something equally petty.

 

[mrcheek]

frankly, i cant see the point of a shop taking up excess space on a four car train. if you have a 7-8 carriage HST, then its OK, but Voyagers are just DMUs that go fast sometimes.

If youre embarking on a lenghty journey, then why not take your own food with you? (I have an eating disorder, so I have to do this anyway. when I did a first class ALR last year, I never had any of the free food on offer. altho I was more than happy to avail myself of free coffee and orange juice.)

frankly, i dont see why people expect a variety and range of foods and drinks on a train anyway. its a ****ing train! its for transporting people from A to B. its not a restaurant!!! Arriva are quite rightly focussing on the most important thing - making extra space for passengers.

 

[43106]

43106: Did you say that your naughty bits are "woefully small" or have I just got confused with your punctuation?

Yes, you are confused with punctuation. My bum and naughty bits were in brackets, whereas Voyagers are woefully small and noisy.
However my bum and naughty bits HAVE been woefully small and noisy....and in that order!!!!!! But that was quite some time ago.....:cry: I'm now 43106, but I used to be 93855!

 

[LilLoaf]

I travel on XC a lot and recenrly i wrote a book (which i have not published yet) on a comparison between Virgin trains crosscountry service before November 2007 and on a Arriva Crosscoutry service after November 2007 using the same service (14.30 from Birmingham - Newcastle ) and comparing what the journey was like in terms of food, customer service, train clean, and timekeeping. If any1 is interested in giving it a read them just send me a private message. Its not a professionally produced book as i am no auther i just wrote becasue it was an interesting comparison.

This idea of taking shop out of the voyagers probably wont be as bad as people think, it will create more seats and luggage space. On busy trains where the trolley carn't get through the train there is a sort of trolley park where bike storage area is now like on the 185's. So therefore passengers will be able to work down there to collect food just as they did from the shop.

Food choise will be seriously reduced as there will be no hot food available.

 

[Pumbaa]

As some have picked up on here, most of the blame lies with Virgin.

They ordered the Vomiters. Enough said. Every other problem stems from this simple fact. The trolleys are not going to work, as the Vomiters will be packed. The HSTs on the other hand will be nice and breezy, and have room to navigate a trolley down the aisle. XCT subcontract the cleaning out, as its a cost-saving initiative. Virgin had the money to throw at cleaning staff. Virgin also stole a large(r) portion of staff to operate their BHM - GLC/EDB services and alike from the XC allocation. XCT staff now tend to be rather grumpy in my experience.

And of course, they would be leaving the shop in if Virgin hadn't squealed like stuck pigs when XCT decided that removing the shop was a waste of money and would cause more inconvenience to passengers than originally expected.

Worst TOC? Got to be EMT, although if DfT let them do what they wanted, I suspect that that would improve drastically.

 

[williamn]

If I'm on a long journey I dont want to eat a warm sandwich thats been sitting in my bag for hours, nor a warm soft drink.

It is a train, but a buffet is something which differentiates a train from other transport options and makes it more attractive. If you're looking at travel options say from bristol to Edinburgh then I would say a train with no refreshments on board looks like a loser compared to the plane.

I overheard a guy on NXEC the other day saying that the fact he can get dinner on the train is the sole reason he takes it rather than the plane.

 

[87015]

As some have picked up on here, most of the blame lies with Virgin.

They ordered the Vomiters. Enough said. Every other problem stems from this simple fact.

Well said that man ! 100% agreed.

 

[The Planner]

Id actually pin the blame on one bloke, Richard Bowker.

 

[Pumbaa]

Id actually pin the blame on one bloke, Richard Bowker.

Care to expand? I vaguely recognise the name.

 

[P156KWJ]

I agree with mrcheek. Yay HSTs!

But yeah, I have noticed that the Voyagers have been getting into a bit of a mess recently.

The at seat audio has never worked for me. I've heard advertisments for headphones to use with the at seat audio. People come back with their £8 (IIRC) headphones only to find out that the audio doesn't work at all. This is a good move in my opinion and will stop people wasting their money.

I rarely use the buffet service, but I think that taking it away is ridiculous. Would they be able to send a trolley down? If not, then I guess people are going to be jumping off at intermediate stations in a dash to find food before the train leaves again.

But hey, at least they're usually on time. More than FGW can say!

I can remember they were £2.50 headphones, the at seat audio *usually* worked

I just got £10 compo of XC today for cancellations and overcrowded trains 8)

 

[Techniquest]

Much as I love travelling on HSTs above any other train, it sounds to me like their treatment of their customers (and possibly their trains too) is nothing short of disgraceful. Some on here need to lose the rose-tinted spectacles :roll:

Damn bloody straight. I have to say if it weren't for the HSTs this summer I'd have not travelled with AXC anywhere near as much as I have done.

Gizmogle says on the first page they're usually on time...

*cough* *splutter* *coughs again* *chucks up hairball* *clears throat*

Right, what was I saying? Oh yes, AXC? On time? AAA?! Since when? Out of all the AXC moves I've been on this year, I reckon only 60% of them have been on time. The worst delay I've suffered so far with them would be a 119 minutes delay on the Newcastle to Cardiff Voyager on 29th August 2008 (obviously caped at Bristol Temple Meads). Quite, it's the biggest delay I've had this year with any TOC so far. I'll find some statistics to back this up later when I dig out my moves book.

175fan: I'm surprised you prefer to go on a Voyager over a HST. Seems a slightly bizarre idea to me, but there we go.

LilLoaf: If you could forward via PM a copy of that bit you've wrote on the comparative journies I'd be interested in reading it. It's well known I didn't like Arriva taking over XC (if it wasn't before, it soon will be!) and I don't like their ****-poor attitude to timekeeping, the flithy state of some of the trains (granted I've seen cleaning staff going up and down the Voyagers now and again but nothing on the scale of Virgin's cleaning) inside and out, the abysmal lack of information they convey to passengers on their services, their complete lack of contact when you complain to them (I'm still awaiting some sort of reply after I complained about the 119 minutes delay on that Newcastle to Cardiff Central Voyager. AXC were not directly responsible, but it was still the fault of the railway) which doesn't help restore any faith from me in them.

I swear it wasn't this bad when it was with Virgin...

I could rant on for hours about AXC, but I'll leave it as the above for now.

 

[P156KWJ]

unfortunately, due to a crappy timetable, AXC HSTs are becoming later and are finding it hard to keep up to time as well.

 

[Techniquest]

The HSTs have been struggling to keep to the timetable since they were introduced again by AXC. Mind, Voyagers have a time and a half keeping to time usually too.

 

[Mojo]

Care to expand? I vaguely recognise the name.

He worked for Virgin and was connected with the introduction of new trains on Virgin. From 2001 he was the Chairman of the now-defunct Strategic Rail Authority. He is currently the CEO of National Express Group.

 

[Gizmogle]

I can remember they were £2.50 headphones, the at seat audio *usually* worked

I just got £10 compo of XC today for cancellations and overcrowded trains 8)

Ah, my mistake there. I always thought that they were more than that.

Still though, I've never had a working radio on a Voyager, and very, very few on Pendos.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I dunno, I havent run into much trouble with AXC myself yet, had one delay due to some driver not turning up but otherwise the most late trains I get is on HSTs because of the tight TT. I dont mind Voyagers, if offered a 150/158/156/MTU set or a Voyager I would indeed choose the Voyager. Ok its boring sometimes from Derby to BTM but its not the Voyager thats wrong, its the route being boring and the seat manufactor who need to make better seats...slightly better...that is

Never really use the shop so thats not a loss to me either.



Cheers,

James.