Cross Country serving Wolverhampton

[Philip]

Do people think that Wolverhampton should have pick up/set down restrictions on one of their Manchester Cross Country services, similar to how Watford and Bolton do on their intercity services? I'm on a CC now which has just called at Wolverhampton and the train has become busy on its way into Birmingham. The bigger problem seems to be going the other way as the trains can get packed at New Street with locallly travelling passengers, meaning passengers for Stafford and beyond struggle to find a seat - I wouldn't be surprised if people sometimes get left behind at New Street when it is a 4 coach Voyager.

The pick up/set down restriction seems to work OK between Manchester-Bolton on the Scotland services, and Birmingham-Wolves is already well served by TfW and WMT, so would it be a good idea for CC to add these restrictions for the Wolverhampton stop on one of the two Birmingham-Manchester services, once this reverts back to a 2tph frequency from May?

 

[zwk500]

Birmingham-Wolves is already well served by TfW and WMT

Is it? WMT don't operate out that way, and AFAIK LNR don't go to Manchester. TfW Manchester go via Crewe and Shrewsbury and their Birminghams go via Telford. You've got 1tph Avanti and 1tph XC from Man Picc to Wolves, according to RTT.

so would it be a good idea for CC to add these restrictions for the Wolverhampton stop on one of the two Birmingham-Manchester services, once this reverts back to a 2tph frequency from May?

Probably not, given the above. Doubling up the Voyagers would be nice though.

 

[class 9]

Do people think that Wolverhampton should have pick up/set down restrictions on one of their Manchester Cross Country services, similar to how Watford and Bolton do on their intercity services? I'm on a CC now which has just called at Wolverhampton and the train has become busy on its way into Birmingham. The bigger problem seems to be going the other way as the trains can get packed at New Street with locallly travelling passengers, meaning passengers for Stafford and beyond struggle to find a seat - I wouldn't be surprised if people sometimes get left behind at New Street when it is a 4 coach Voyager.

The pick up/set down restriction seems to work OK between Manchester-Bolton on the Scotland services, and Birmingham-Wolves is already well served by TfW and WMT, so would it be a good idea for CC to add these restrictions for the Wolverhampton stop on one of the two Birmingham-Manchester services, once this reverts back to a 2tph frequency from May?

There's a project about to start looking short distance passengers on long distance XC services, looking Coventry, Wolverhampton, West Yorkshire, Fife and the South West.
Whether the outcomes of this will involve pick-up/ Set down will remain to be seen.

 

[The Planner]

Can imagine they would lose a hefty chunk of ORCATs doing that. Why ask if XC need to do it, it affects Avanti just as much between Cov and Wolves. Though on the flip side, they did bin off Solihull entirely due to this.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Can’t see it would be popular with passengers from/to south of Birmingham

 

[tbtc]

No

These restrictions work close to termini but not in the middle of journeys

XC tried set down restrictions on Leeds - Wakefield at peak times but it just caused headaches (e.g. a passenger from Edinburgh Newcastle/ York to Wakefield would be expected to get off Leeds and charge for a different Wakefield train even though the train they were on was going to stop there anyway?)

You could skip Wolverhampton but then it’sa big place in its own right for longer distance journeys

It’s also a very short journey (New Street - Wolves) for ticket checks, so it might not make much difference

Well intentioned, definitely, it’sa busy bit of like that Voyagers can’t cope with but I don’t think that this is the solution

 

[sprinterguy]

Is it? WMT don't operate out that way, and AFAIK LNR don't go to Manchester. TfW Manchester go via Crewe and Shrewsbury and their Birminghams go via Telford. You've got 1tph Avanti and 1tph XC from Man Picc to Wolves, according to RTT.

I think you misread that portion of Philip's post: They were referencing Birmingham - Wolverhampton, rather than Manchester.

Also at present, until the May timetable change, the direct service between Manchester and Wolverhampton comprises the hourly XC Manchester - Reading/Manchester service, sundry additional Manchester - Bristol trains but only one southbound Avanti train per day.

 

[zwk500]

I think you misread that portion of Philip's post: They were referencing Birmingham - Wolverhampton, rather than Manchester.

Ah, fair point.

 

[sprinterguy]

Probably not, given the above. Doubling up the Voyagers would be nice though.

Sadly, the reintroduction of more Bristol - Manchester trains is only going to result in fewer double sets on the Bournemouth/Reading - Manchester services.

 

[Topological]

It is definitely frustrating being on a train at Birmingham unable to leave because it is too full and a lot of people are only going to Wolverhampton. It is an age old problem though that has yet to be resolved. In the modern 15 minute delay compensation regime I have had cases where the delay at Birmingham has made my journey eligible for repay. So it definitely happens that cross country trains become too full and take a long time to leave Birmingham as a result.

Could we ever reach a situation where tickets between U and V are not valid on trains between X and Y? In this case the only way to enforce it is by having the occasional team checking tickets on the platform, but the mention of this in announcements may put some off.

The ORCATS point is very valid, but that seems like a sad way to be running a railway.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Sympathy for both sides. Overcrowding is annoying for other passengers but on the other hand a city of Wolverhampton's size probably should have proper intercity services where you can both get on and get off in both directions. At least if passengers for further afield find themselves standing they should be able to get a seat when the Wolverhampton travellers get off.

 

[class 9]

Can imagine they would lose a hefty chunk of ORCATs doing that. Why ask if XC need to do it, it affects Avanti just as much between Cov and Wolves. Though on the flip side, they did bin off Solihull entirely due to this.

Is ORCATS still applicable? As all revenue goes to the treasury now.

 

[Dr Day]

Is ORCATS still applicable? As all revenue goes to the treasury now.

It was applicable pre-privatisation to allocate revenue to different BR train services so still applicable in principle today. The railway industry still needs something given the TOCs are still run as pseudo individual businesses.

 

[zwk500]

Is ORCATS still applicable? As all revenue goes to the treasury now.

It ends up at the Treasury, but it goes through the TOCs first. Not sure if TOCs have revenue as part of their management metrics.

 

[py_megapixel]

Sadly, the reintroduction of more Bristol - Manchester trains is only going to result in fewer double sets on the Bournemouth/Reading - Manchester services.

It doesn't matter though as Bristol-Manchester trains will also call at Wolverhampton.

 

[sprinterguy]

It doesn't matter though as Bristol-Manchester trains will also call at Wolverhampton.

It matters quite a lot to those of us who regularly use the services.

 

[py_megapixel]

It matters quite a lot to those of us who regularly use the services.

I don't see why - there is no decrease in capacity from Wolverhampton to either Manchester or Birmingham.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't see why - there is no decrease in capacity from Wolverhampton to either Manchester or Birmingham.

That doesn't seem to be how it's worked so far in practice, unfortunately, as occasional Bristol services have been reintroduced to the timetable: An overcrowded 4-car train from Bristol is followed through Birmingham half an hour later by an overcrowded 5-car train from Bournemouth.

No idea how that mechanism works, admittedly, when previously once an hour an overcrowded 4-car would lead a quiet 5-car, but there doesn't seem to have been the redistribution of passengers that might have been expected.

 

[dk1]

This has cropped up several times before. The inconvenience to those travelling beyond New Street always ought weighs the argument.

 

[Bevan Price]

The solution is to sack the DfT and give XC some full length trains with enough capacity to meet customer demand.

 

[JonathanH]

The solution is to sack the DfT and give XC some full length trains with enough capacity to meet customer demand.

How do you 'sack' the DfT? Who does it? The DfT are just the front end for the Treasury in any case.

XC can't be 'given' trains.

The solution is to build a business case for the future operation of XC and come up with whatever produces the best value for the taxpayer.

There always seems to be an assumption that running longer trains on XC is going to improve the railway's finances. It would be interesting to know what modelling says. The length of the Voyager trains got reduced in their original specification because the numbers didn't stack up.

 

[irish_rail]

The solution is to sack the DfT and give XC some full length trains with enough capacity to meet customer demand.

Wheres the LIkE button!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

How do you 'sack' the DfT? Who does it? The DfT are just the front end for the Treasury in any case.

XC can't be 'given' trains.

No but something needs to be done. Some kind of reshuffle. Capacity is skewed ridiculously at present throughout the UK. Oh for a nationalised railway where railway managers could allocate resources according to need.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

Sadly, the reintroduction of more Bristol - Manchester trains is only going to result in fewer double sets on the Bournemouth/Reading - Manchester services.

The bigger issue is going to be the obliteration of double sets on the Plymouth to North East route. Its busier, and far longer journey times. 3 and a half hours on a 4 car voyager from Plymouth just to get to Birmingham? No thanks. Ryanair will be rubbing their hands together...

 

[JonathanH]

Oh for a nationalised railway where railway managers could allocate resources according to need.

CrossCountry was at the bottom of that stack too, although it was possible to reallocate resources at the weekend.

No but something needs to be done. Some kind of reshuffle. Capacity is skewed ridiculously at present throughout the UK.

Yes, a reshuffle. XC could concentrate on its core (Bristol to Leeds / York, Reading to Manchester) and passengers could change at those stations for the operations with more capacity.

Not sure you would like that idea either but it would rebalance capacity.

 

[AndrewE]

The solution is to sack the DfT and give XC some full length trains with enough capacity to meet customer demand.

True, but the problem was there before and will continue
We definitely need "U" and "S" stops on long distance trains to prevent commuters stopping long-distance passengers from boarding. Occasional (or regular) platform-specific revenue-inspections could enforce it.

Better still would be to upgrade the infrastructure and fleet sizes to allow a fast intra-regional express to preceded the long-distance trains.

 

[irish_rail]

CrossCountry was at the bottom of that stack too, although it was possible to reallocate resources at the weekend.

I'm not advocating a return to 1980s British rail, but a modern day equivalent. The UK of the 2020s is different to the UK of the 1980s. Leisure travel is far more important nowadays.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

CrossCountry was at the bottom of that stack too, although it was possible to reallocate resources at the weekend.


Yes, a reshuffle. XC could concentrate on its core (Bristol to Leeds / York, Reading to Manchester) and passengers could change at those stations for the operations with more capacity.

Not sure you would like that idea either but it would rebalance capacity.

The issue with axing Plymouth to Bristol is that the GWR offering is slow stopping trains. Its also very well used between the south west and further north. Id argue Plymouth to York, Reading and Manchester would be more feasible.

 

[Topological]

Getting into what GWR could do to increase capacity between Bristol and points currently served by CrossCountry is getting into the speculative, but it is arguably possible if more capacity on the wired sections of GWR is provided by suitable EMUs (especially when Oxford is wired) and allowing released 80x to continue as fast services from Bristol south.

Similar can be speculated with LNER north from York or Newcastle and anywhere on the WCML from Birmingham northwards. Both of those could use redundant EMUs.

Everything then disappears down a direct journeys rabbit hole.

Is there not a similar issue with the TFW longer distance trains getting filled with people going to Wolverhampton rather than longer distance passengers?

 

[sprinterguy]

The bigger issue is going to be the obliteration of double sets on the Plymouth to North East route. Its busier, and far longer journey times. 3 and a half hours on a 4 car voyager from Plymouth just to get to Birmingham? No thanks. Ryanair will be rubbing their hands together...

Yes the North East - South West route is set to be the biggest loser in Crosscountry's plans for May and beyond, but it's not affected by overcrowding exacerbated by short distance passengers between Birmingham and Wolverhampton, the original topic of this thread.