Cross country garbage.

[87015]

It was the SRA at the time as the DfT didn't take direct control of rail until 2005. With the sudden increase in demand after Operation Princess Virgin did want to extend the Voyagers but the SRA blocked it. I can't find the exact reason why it was blocked but I seem to remember Virgin Cross Country ended up on a management contract. The SRA also forced Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs in 2003.

Post-Operation Pumpkin VXC collapsed. It was launched in September and by December VXC had been forced to produce the SRA an 18(?) point emergency plan as it was running at 50% PPM and well in breach of the franchise agreement...
Then it turned out that financially that XC and "the worlds biggest ORCATS raid" was going about as disasterously as the performance stats as it wasn't balancing the costs of running lots of high-cost DMUs which brought the operation to its knees - the SRA said enough was enough when VXC went cap-in-hand for yet more subsidy - and the cuts began...

 

[HSTEd]

A 110mph limited flat front EMU with 5 23m vehicles, using Cl180 seating density with the Cl180s' buffet space could end up with over 310 passengers.

Rather better than even a 5-car Super Voyager (278) and it will have far lower running costs.

If you switch to Voyager levels of seating density I imagine the figure climbs even higher.

 

[YorkshireBear]

A 110mph limited flat front EMU with 5 23m vehicles, using Cl180 seating density with the Cl180s' buffet space could end up with over 310 passengers.

Rather better than even a 5-car Super Voyager (278) and it will have far lower running costs.

If you switch to Voyager levels of seating density I imagine the figure climbs even higher.

It needs to be 125mph. Long stretches of ECML and GWML are 125mph and you would increase journey times and reduce capacity by doing that.

I think a mix of 5 and 8 car 125mph emus would suffice.

_____

I am not a rolling stock engineer/expert. What i would like to know, how possible would it be to couple a DMU and an EMU in service. Ie.
5 car DMU from aberdeen to edinburgh, then joins to 5 car EMU and runs as a 10 car until Bristol, where the 5 car DMU then runs to plymouth/penzance.

 

[ainsworth74]

It needs to be 125mph. Long stretches of ECML and GWML are 125mph and you would increase journey times and reduce capacity by doing that.

HSTEd is talking specifically of the Manchester - Bournemouth services which by 2019 should be totally under the wires and will therefore be ripe for conversion to EMU operation. Obviously the wider XC network will need 125mph capable rolling stock but it also won't be suitable for EMU operation until sometime post 2019.

 

[transmanche]

A 110mph limited flat front EMU with 5 23m vehicles, using Cl180 seating density with the Cl180s' buffet space could end up with over 310 passengers.

A Class 444 seats 299 in standard and 35 in first, 334 total. An AC version of that would give you a '110mph limited flat front EMU'.

Job done.

 

[Jatos]

It needs to be 125mph. Long stretches of ECML and GWML are 125mph and you would increase journey times and reduce capacity by doing that.

I think a mix of 5 and 8 car 125mph emus would suffice.

_____

I am not a rolling stock engineer/expert. What i would like to know, how possible would it be to couple a DMU and an EMU in service. Ie.
5 car DMU from aberdeen to edinburgh, then joins to 5 car EMU and runs as a 10 car until Bristol, where the 5 car DMU then runs to plymouth/penzance.

I don't get why they don't just order some more carriages and lengthen the Voyagers. The Meridians if I am not mistaken, go upto 9 cars, so why can't it be done with XC?

Oh let me guess, too cheapskate to order new carriages!

 

[Zoe]

I don't get why they don't just order some more carriages and lengthen the Voyagers. The Meridians if I am not mistaken, go upto 9 cars, so why can't it be done with XC?

The ROSCOs will not buy new stock unless there is a guarantee that it will be used. The DfT has to provide this guarantee, Arriva only have a franchise for 9 years.

 

[Goatboy]

What a farce. It seems our system combines the worst aspects of private ownership with the worst aspects of government control and benefits from neither the best bits of private enterprise nor the best bits of state ownership as a result.

It is hugely frustrating to sit on a wedged to the max Voyager after having paid a fortune for the privileage knowing that the priority for spending money on the railways is not increasing capacity or reducing fares on these routes but going after big prestige projects instead. I'd tolerate the conditions of a Voyager if XC fares were fantastic value, and I'd tolerate XC fares if the travelling experience was fantastic, but the current XC franchise offers neither.

 

[Rich McLean]

Out of interest, is there any running faster than 110mph for non tilt enabled stock on the Manchester-South Coast runs?

I can't think of any.
If not then those voyagers could be replaced by whatever is ordered to fit Greater Anglia on electrification.

The stretch between Didcot Parkway and Reading is 125, apart from a section through Chosley (sp) which is 120mph

On another note, did York to Oxford direct on a voyager today. Everyone got a seat, turned out to be a pleasant jounrney, and it was even a 4 coach voyager. It also hit New Street in evening rush hour (rush 2 hours in brum)

 

[Zoe]

The stretch between Didcot Parkway and Reading is 125, apart from a section through Chosley (sp) which is 120mph

That's only on the Up Main, the Down Main is 125 mph. Do the Voyagers always use the main and not relief lines between Reading and Didcot?

 

[notadriver]

It would depend on if they are booked to run at 125 mph. I suspect they aren't.

 

[PHILIPE]

What a farce. It seems our system combines the worst aspects of private ownership with the worst aspects of government control and benefits from neither the best bits of private enterprise nor the best bits of state ownership as a result.

It is hugely frustrating to sit on a wedged to the max Voyager after having paid a fortune for the privileage knowing that the priority for spending money on the railways is not increasing capacity or reducing fares on these routes but going after big prestige projects instead. I'd tolerate the conditions of a Voyager if XC fares were fantastic value, and I'd tolerate XC fares if the travelling experience was fantastic, but the current XC franchise offers neither.

Any normal company which had a large increase in demand would expand to cater for the demand and quickly without going through long drawn out processes but not so far as the Rail Industry is concerned

 

[Butts]

Any normal company which had a large increase in demand would expand to cater for the demand and quickly without going through long drawn out processes but not so far as the Rail Industry is concerned

Thats what happens when you have an oligopoly :roll:

 

[D1009]

That's only on the Up Main, the Down Main is 125 mph. Do the Voyagers always use the main and not relief lines between Reading and Didcot?

Most of them use the relief lines for pathing reasons.

 

[calc7]

There's only the two slow "Ealing Broadway" trains each hour - something else has to use the reliefs as well!

 

[HSTEd]

A Class 444 seats 299 in standard and 35 in first, 334 total. An AC version of that would give you a '110mph limited flat front EMU'.

Job done.

As I understand it the 444s catering facilities are rudimentary compared even to the micro buffet counter thing fitted to 180s and to the facilities offered in Voyagers.

Also it has rather higher density seating than what I was proposing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any normal company which had a large increase in demand would expand to cater for the demand and quickly without going through long drawn out processes but not so far as the Rail Industry is concerned

Why?

Will expanding the business yield a better return on the capital invested?
It is highly doubtful.

This is what happens when private equity runs things, they view the business as an investment that must be sweated to generate the highest cash yields possible today.
Any idea of "building the business" is impractical in infrastructure type settings like the power grid and railways since growth is incredibly capital intensive and thus nigh impossible for the private sector in the modern capital markets.

 

[transmanche]

A Class 444 seats 299 in standard and 35 in first, 334 total. An AC version of that would give you a '110mph limited flat front EMU'.

Job done.

As I understand it the 444s catering facilities are rudimentary compared even to the micro buffet counter thing fitted to 180s and to the facilities offered in Voyagers.

Also it has rather higher density seating than what I was proposing.

Well it's got 24 extra seats compared to what you wanted - lose a few of those to improve the buffet and increase the seat pitch if necessary. But most importantly; it's a proven, reliable design.

 

[Roverman]

I wrote to XC complaining about the experience I had on 11/11. I recieved their reply today.

Dear Mr XXXXX

Thank you for contacting us.

I am extremely sorry that you did not receive the catering service that you expected when you travelled with us on 11th November. I can understand your disappointment and frustration that the trolley did not reach you.

As you are aware we are not able to provide a dedicated first class host or the full catering service at the weekend. To compensate for this we do reduce the fares so that customer's are able to travel in first class by paying a supplemented fare on board. That said you should have expected to receive a hot or cold drink and some biscuits at the very least and I apologise that this did not happen.

I would also apologise for the unpleasant smell. We have spent a great deal of effort in reducing these smells on the trains which are usually caused by a broken seal. We have installed more robust and flexible seals between the toilet and the waste tank to stop odours escaping and we have also put better deoderising equipment into place. There has been a huge decline in reports of smells as a result but I do know how unpleasant that it can be when this does happen.

We do have a policy on what to do when customers refuse to pay the appropriate fare. Our train managers are told not to be confrontational as this can escalate the problem but if the train manager is not able to persuade the customers to pay the appropriate fare they are able to call the British Transport Police who will join the train at the next major station and escort passengers from the train. The Stoke to Manchester route does have a high incidence of fare evasion which we are addressing. You will notice that we have Revenue Inspectors travelling regularly on this route who will assist the train manager in collecting fares. These inspectors will only sell full priced anytime single tickets on board and they will prosecute people who they believe are trying to avoid payment.

I will be happy to send you some travel vouchers as a way of apologising for the lack of refreshment offered to you. i will need a postal address in order to issue these and I would be grateful if you would send this to me quoting reference [REDACTED].

As soon as I hear from you i will write to you again.

Yours sincerely

David Watts
Customer Relations Consultant
CrossCountry

Grammatical errors italicised by me. Other than that its a very good response letter, he has obviously read my complaint as he answered each point in turn and in detail. I would suggest that anyone who has been left dis-satisfied by their experience on an XC train should write in, not just because you could get recompense but because if they don't know whats wrong however will they improve it?

 

[Geezertronic]

I wrote to XC complaining about the experience I had on 11/11. I recieved their reply today.

If you haven't already, I'd blank out the XC reference in case someone tries to use it on your behalf

 

[ainsworth74]

I've gone ahead and removed the reference from the quote because someone else could use it to claim your vouchers!

 

[Waverley125]

the thing one has to worry about is what would happen to XC if some parts of the route, such as Derby-Bristol & Sheffield-Leeds, were every upgraded to proper mainline (i.e. 125mph) standards?

Bad enough as it is now, where most trains clearly need to be 8 coaches, if that ever happened you'd need 11 on what has got to be one of the most population-dense routes in the country.

After the wiring in the northwest & the MML, the Cross Country route has got to be the next major target for a serious upgrade in terms of speed, comfort, wiring & new trains. Considering it links Bristol/Cardiff to the West Midlands to Nottingham/Derby to Sheffield to Leeds to Teeside to Newcastle to Scotland, it really should be a no-brainer.

 

[Butts]

I've gone ahead and removed the reference from the quote because someone else could use it to claim your vouchers!

Damn - I was half way through the application and didn't write it down
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the thing one has to worry about is what would happen to XC if some parts of the route, such as Derby-Bristol & Sheffield-Leeds, were every upgraded to proper mainline (i.e. 125mph) standards?

Bad enough as it is now, where most trains clearly need to be 8 coaches, if that ever happened you'd need 11 on what has got to be one of the most population-dense routes in the country.

After the wiring in the northwest & the MML, the Cross Country route has got to be the next major target for a serious upgrade in terms of speed, comfort, wiring & new trains. Considering it links Bristol/Cardiff to the West Midlands to Nottingham/Derby to Sheffield to Leeds to Teeside to Newcastle to Scotland, it really should be a no-brainer.

Unfortunately no-brainer and The Railway are not often easy bedfellows

 

[Deerfold]

Dear Mr XXXXX


As you are aware we are not able to provide a dedicated first class host or the full catering service at the weekend.

Really? Or is that "we choose not to provide...because we don't find it finaincially worthwhile"

To compensate for this we do reduce the fares so that customer's are able to travel in first class by paying a supplemented fare on board.

Very odd phrasing - they don't reduce the fares so you can pay a supplement. They provide the option of travelling in First class by paying a supplement.

I would also apologise for the unpleasant smell. We have spent a great deal of effort in reducing these smells on the trains which are usually caused by a broken seal.

*HONK HONK*

We do have a policy on what to do when customers refuse to pay the appropriate fare. Our train managers are told not to be confrontational as this can escalate the problem but if the train manager is not able to persuade the customers to pay the appropriate fare they are able to call the British Transport Police who will join the train at the next major station and escort passengers from the train.

I think there's a few guards on here might have a different opion on what's likely to happen.

 

[Roverman]

Thanks for redacting the ref number. The Voucher arrived today, £15, not sure how they arrived at this figure as the tickets cost more than £15 and I bought First Class tickets 'straight' rather than going via Standard and upgrading. The letter attached however is a totally different one to the one emailed to me, they only discuss the lack of refreshments suggesting that as it was a 'weekend' service I perhaps should have known better!

 

[yorksrob]

Got an XC HST for the first time for a longish journey and was very impressed. Seemed more spacious and less threadbare than a voyager (the carpet seemed particularly plush).

 

[wintonian]

Got an XC HST for the first time for a longish journey and was very impressed. Seemed more spacious and less threadbare than a voyager (the carpet seemed particularly plush).

You mean the carpet didn't have dried urine and god knows what over it?

 

[yorksrob]

You mean the carpet didn't have dried urine and god knows what over it?

If it did, it was well hidden. It was almost as if they'd done the shake'n'vac.

 

[railuser007]

According to the time tables the 0641 CrossCountry service from Reading was cancelled, but appears to have carried on from Oxford onwards; I'm intersted to find out, as it appears to have left Guildford on time - did it get to Oxford bypassing Reading or was it a different train from Oxford onwards?

 

[Starmill]

You mean the carpet didn't have dried urine and god knows what over it?

Dried urine? Do they have carpeted toilets or something?


Besides, I'd imagine a Voyager is a more apt victim of a dirty protest by an enraged commuter than an HST!

 

[PHILIPE]

Dried urine? Do they have carpeted toilets or something?


Besides, I'd imagine a Voyager is a more apt victim of a dirty protest by an enraged commuter than an HST!

By the way, Voyagers are nicknamed "Vomiters".