calc7
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There is no "E" (apparently to mitigate confusion with "F") and "B" is only found on Class 221 five-coach Voyagers.
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Cross country garbage.
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There is no "E" (apparently to mitigate confusion with "F") and "B" is only found on Class 221 five-coach Voyagers.
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R
RailUK Forums
Yes. Coach B exists only in five car sets (and the letter is omitted in four car sets to avoid confusing reservation systems and passengers). I'm not sure why E was omitted from the sequence but I'd image there are reasons for it. Either way they haven't had coaches removed and all (on XC) run in the formations that they were built in.
I think Virgin had originally planned to buy additional sets and have more doubled up, however I believe the DfT may have blocked this at some point.
Not their responsibility. For a fair few years now the DfT has been responsible for procuring rolling stock the franchises just have to make do with whatever they can get. Which often means that new rolling stock only comes about at franchise changes when it can be negotiated as part of the franchise agreement.
It is worth remembering, before you start beating on the privatised railway too hard, that the DfT and the civil service have far more control over the railway and it's day to day operation than they ever did when it was run by BR. At one point it looked like the DfT would be specifying what catering was to be provide on every service in some franchises.
With the e-voyager plans scrapped due to money issues and electrification, I can't see any new stock being ordered until the new franchise starts in 2016. If the delays to re-franchising causes knock on effects, the franchise could be extended for xc? Add in a few years to order and build the sets it could be 2020!!!
All of which seems ridiculous. If key business and investment decisions are out of the hands of the TOC's one has to wonder just how much power the poor TOC's have over what happens on the networks they run!
Eagle
Established Member
Virgin's 221s use E and not F (and when they double up it's A-B-C-D-E-G-H-J-K-L). For consistency with 390/0s, I think.
When XC double up they use the rather odd A-(B)-C-D-F-G-(H)-I-J-L. Assuming both sets are the same way round, which isn't always. It's quite clear they're anticipating a new coach E/K to be put in...
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Which means they must be making a shedload of cash to not be too concerned about it, after all if you were only making 15% you just wouldn't put up with it would you?
Rich McLean
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Yep, pax couldn't board, as there was a wall of people blocking the doors, the only way pax could get off was for other pax to get off as well
The answer of course being not all that much! Basically TOCs can tinker around the edges (perhaps getting a couple of extra off lease trains like Northern and FGW have in recent years) but wholesale rolling stock replacement needs the DfT. Large scale infrastructure projects would also probably need the DfT (Virgin did not single handedly modernise the WCML as much as they'd like you to believe that they did) and would certainly need Network Rail to be on board.
Fifteen per cent! They wish. I think the average is about three per cent profit on their revenue.
Shedload???? Considering they have been running for 5 years, 2012 will be the first year they will have made a profit in a year. I wonder how much they have lost on the franchise to date.
Finally shock horror, but it could be said that db (german railways) are subsiding our railways- rather than the view that xc profits are subsiding germany.
The article I read in Modern Railway last month suggested that modernise would be putting it generously. The original plans were very 21st century, what we ended up with isn't.
3 per cent? Jeez thats almost as bad as a nationalised bank savings account! I suppose this explains why Alan Sugar doesn't do trains!
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Funny really isn't it, since said nationalised bank sold more than £3 billion worth of train just-like-that in the financial crisis.
While we're at it - why not get the bank to set up a TOC? Imagine that - the rolling stock would be owned by the train company for once!
Oh yeah, ^ that's why. Do any TOCs own any of their own rolling stock?
Manchester77
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^^
First Great Western own a few HSTs
I have a feeling that EMT own some of their trains idek why
First Great Western own a few HSTs
I have a feeling that EMT own some of their trains idek why
As far as I'm aware only First Group own trains (which they use on their GW franchise). Grand Central used to own their own HSTs but sold them to a ROSCO a few years ago.
SprinterMan
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Stagecoach own the Island Line Class 483s, that is probably what you are thinking of.
Adam
HSTEd
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You are confusing profit as a percentage of turnover with return as a percentage of capital investment.
If you look at how much capital the TOCs actually have to put up, the yields are an awful lot higher than that.
I always forget about the Island Line. Didn't they buy them for £1 each or something?
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
The franchise is already being granted an extension to continue running until 2016, without an extension the Crosscountry franchise would be due to finish on 11th November 2013. Has the extension to Crosscountry's franchise ever been formally announced? Clearly it is quite obvious that the franchise is being granted an extension, otherwise the refranchising process would have to have been started by now, but have I missed an official announcement to this effect?
I cannot see the latest franchising debacle impacting on the start dates for franchises three to four years in the future. Note also that the present timing of the end of the present Crosscountry franchise on 31st March 2016 ties in with the end of the Section 54 agreement covering the Voyagers that keeps them tied to the XC franchise.
D1009
Established Member
Virgin did not take away capacity, they doubled the number of train services on a large part of the network. Overcrowding is now limited to a small number of trains midweek. Weekends are different matter as journey times lengthened by engineering work mean you need more sets to run the same number of journeys.
I must very unlucky then as none of the XC services I use on a regular basis are anything other than ultra-wedged. A distinct contrast to the services of, well, pretty much every other operator that I use.
As for doubling the number of services - really? And how many seats did they offer pre and post Voyagerisation in total?
Just looking at a pre Operation Princess timetable and it shows departures north from Bristol at 0506, 0603, 0645, 0715, 0757, 0830, 0926, 1013, 1114, 1210, 1256, 1314, 1412, 1507, 1535, 1615, 1707, 1810 and 1924. Now it's every 30 minutes throughout the day.
And apart from an early morning service and the last two services of the day (where there is an hour and half gap between them) the services depart at a clockface time of xx00 and xx30 rather than being all over the place and judging from the that there are three trains that leave later (2000, 2030 and 2200).
HSTEd
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Out of interest, is there any running faster than 110mph for non tilt enabled stock on the Manchester-South Coast runs?
I can't think of any.
If not then those voyagers could be replaced by whatever is ordered to fit Greater Anglia on electrification.
I can't think of any.
If not then those voyagers could be replaced by whatever is ordered to fit Greater Anglia on electrification.
There was a later service to Birmingham leaving Bristol at 2107 but this was run by Wales & West using a 158 starting back from Penzance at 1630. There was also another Wales & West service leaving Bristol for Birmingham at 1725, again using a 158 and starting back from Penzance at 1226.
Double the number of services with approximately half the number of seats on each service.
Which stimulated demand very well.
Virgin's original plan involved two parts - first doubling the service and then doubling the length of the new trains, but the DfT stuck their oar in and the second part didn't happen at the time.
It was the SRA at the time as the DfT didn't take direct control of rail until 2005. With the sudden increase in demand after Operation Princess Virgin did want to extend the Voyagers but the SRA blocked it. I can't find the exact reason why it was blocked but I seem to remember Virgin Cross Country ended up on a management contract. The SRA also forced Virgin to give up their remaining HSTs in 2003.
Yes, thanks - I forgot it used to be the SRA that micromanged, not the DfT
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I well remember in 1992 going for a university interview in Bath and having to arrive in Bath over 2 hours before I needed to due to the frequency of the train service between Leeds and Bristol (and getting an extremely early morning lift to Wakefield).
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