Cross Boundary Tickets

[Kuyoyo]

I wasn't aware of that - I had previously assumed validity ended at the boundary of the Durham County Council area. But that makes it far more useful for people in (for instance) Barnard Castle where they have one bus every two hours to the rest of County Durham but two buses (plus occasional extras) per hour into Darlington. Are there stipulations as to which routes you can use it on?

One annoyance (as a north east resident) is that clearly a fair amount of money has been spent to make the TNE day tickets work on all operators' systems - you can buy a ticket on the Go North East app but use it on an Arriva bus as a scan ticket. The same doesn't seem to really happen with the Explorer - when I bought it in the GNE app I found it scanned fine on Arriva routes just across the border (such as the X66 in Darlington or the 7 between Stockton and Yarm) but flagged up as invalid in places like Redcar, Saltburn, and Whitby. The drivers generally let me on after a little suspicion (I can't imagine they see the Go North East app much down there!), but I wish it was totally frictionless... the way the TNE tickets work is the gold standard and as I say, it's odd that the Explorer scanned fine in one part of the Tees Valley but not another.

Because it's only the Under 22 version that is valid over the boundary - the adult versions aren't.

 

[scottish rider]

That was my understanding of it too

That the Durham County boundary was the border and you needed to buy an Explorer North East to cross it (or at least that was what I have been buying to do that)

Bus Travel: areas and exceptions

www.northeast-ca.gov.uk

Product	Validity	Zone
Durham Day Rover	Valid for unlimited travel for the day of purchase on eligible local bus services.	Valid within the Durham County Council area only.
Tyne & Wear Day Rover	Valid for unlimited travel for the day of purchase on eligible local bus services, The Tyne and Wear Metro, Shields Ferry Services and the Northern Rail services between Blaydon and Sunderland.	Valid within the Tyne and Wear area only.
Northumberland Day Rover	Valid for unlimited travel for the day of purchase on eligible local bus services.	Valid within the Northumberland County Council area only.
TNE Day Saver	Valid for unlimited travel for the day of purchase on eligible local bus services, The Tyne and Wear Metro, Shields Ferry Services and the Northern Rail services between Blaydon and Sunderland.	Valid within Tyne and Wear, Durham County Council area and Northumberland County Council areas only.

 

[Mark L]

ENCTS cards work perfectly well crossing back into Northumberland on Borders Buses 67 from Kelso, Scotland.

I’m assuming that’s a discretionary arrangement funded by Northumbria County Conuncil. The guidance - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - says “TCAs that border Wales or Scotland can use their existing powers to offer travel across the border on a discretionary basis based on their assessment of local need and their overall financial priorities. Discretionary concessionary travel schemes will need to be agreed between the relevant TCA in England and the relevant Welsh or Scottish authority. When making cross-border arrangements, TCAs should also be mindful of the differing ages of eligibility that now exist in the different countries”.

 

[PeterC]

I’m assuming that’s a discretionary arrangement funded by Northumbria County Conuncil. The guidance - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - says “TCAs that border Wales or Scotland can use their existing powers to offer travel across the border on a discretionary basis based on their assessment of local need and their overall financial priorities. Discretionary concessionary travel schemes will need to be agreed between the relevant TCA in England and the relevant Welsh or Scottish authority. When making cross-border arrangements, TCAs should also be mindful of the differing ages of eligibility that now exist in the different countries”.

The Newport Bus website says that ENCTS cards are valid on any route passing through England.

This suggests that I could use my card from Monmouth to Tintern or Chepstow on the 69 as the border strays across the A466 between Redbrook and Bigsweir. Its a run I'd like to do with somebody else concentrating on the driving.

 

[DunsBus]

I’m assuming that’s a discretionary arrangement funded by Northumbria County Conuncil. The guidance - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - says “TCAs that border Wales or Scotland can use their existing powers to offer travel across the border on a discretionary basis based on their assessment of local need and their overall financial priorities. Discretionary concessionary travel schemes will need to be agreed between the relevant TCA in England and the relevant Welsh or Scottish authority. When making cross-border arrangements, TCAs should also be mindful of the differing ages of eligibility that now exist in the different countries”.

It is, and also by agreement with Scottish Borders Council.

Whilst you can use an ENCTS card to travel to and from Kelso on the 67, you can't use it west of Coldstream on the Saturday-only extension of service X16 as the two services are funded by different authorities (67 - Scottish Borders, X16 -Northumberland County Council).

At one time you could use an ENCTS pass to travel to/from Berwick and Galashiels on Borders Buses services 60 and 67, or to/from Newcastle and Jedburgh on the Peter Hogg X74. I'm not sure what the current situation is regarding the Galashiels services, as the 67 was split at Kelso until fairly recently and the Galashiels journeys on the 60 run via Eyemouth during the week.

 

[JKP]

I’m assuming that’s a discretionary arrangement funded by Northumbria County Conuncil. The guidance - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-england-national-concessionary-travel-scheme - says “TCAs that border Wales or Scotland can use their existing powers to offer travel across the border on a discretionary basis based on their assessment of local need and their overall financial priorities. Discretionary concessionary travel schemes will need to be agreed between the relevant TCA in England and the relevant Welsh or Scottish authority. When making cross-border arrangements, TCAs should also be mindful of the differing ages of eligibility that now exist in the different countries”.

The original arrangement with regards to cross Border travel was agreed between Scottish Borders Council and Berwick upon Tweed Borough Council. This arrangement continues with Scottish passes being valid for over 60s and under 22s as far as Berwick upon Tweed and on the west side as far as Carlisle.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Because it's only the Under 22 version that is valid over the boundary - the adult versions aren't.

Apologies - that's my fault that I hadn't spotted it was 21 years and below.

That does limit things and is a really daft rule as places like Newton Aycliffe, Bishop Auckland and Barnard Castle are very much linked to Darlington rather than places like Durham. In fact, in terms of public transport, Darlington is very much more linked to Co Durham (which it was historically part of) than Tees Valley

So it's really the Explorer North East (which I tend to buy anyway) but that's more expensive and doesn't cover the indies that now operate much of the tendered stuff in South West Durham.

 

[NorthOxonian]

So it's really the Explorer North East (which I tend to buy anyway) but that's more expensive and doesn't cover the indies that now operate much of the tendered stuff in South West Durham.

Yes - in particular what this means is no single ticket would cover a circular journey between Darlington, Barnard Castle, and Bishop Auckland (with the exception of the one peak time 6 which extends down to BC). Both Arriva legs of this "traingle" obviously cross the boundary into Darlington, and the direction Barnard Castle to Bishop Auckland bus is ran by an independent.

I can perhaps accept the exclusion of Hartlepool and Stockton, both of which have rather less influence over parts of "modern" administrative County Durham, but you are right that Darlington's area of influence really extends across the whole of south Durham - even the postcodes once you get past about Spennymoor are DL!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes - in particular what this means is no single ticket would cover a circular journey between Darlington, Barnard Castle, and Bishop Auckland (with the exception of the one peak time 6 which extends down to BC). Both Arriva legs of this "traingle" obviously cross the boundary into Darlington, and the direction Barnard Castle to Bishop Auckland bus is ran by an independent.

I can perhaps accept the exclusion of Hartlepool and Stockton, both of which have rather less influence over parts of "modern" administrative County Durham, but you are right that Darlington's area of influence really extends across the whole of south Durham - even the postcodes once you get past about Spennymoor are DL!

As someone born and brought up in the area, I can tell you that it's more the issue that if you live in upper Teesdale e.g. Middleton or one of the villages, it would be easier and more logical to travel to Darlington... in the past, they had direct services. However, even if you live in Barney, you're looking towards Darlington not Bishop!

If you're living in places like Blackhall or Sedgefield, which granted are smaller, your focus is going to be Hartlepool or Stockton respectively. They have been outside of Co Durham for longer so the issue doesn't feel as pronounced, so I get you on that.

 

[markymark2000]

The Newport Bus website says that ENCTS cards are valid on any route passing through England.

This suggests that I could use my card from Monmouth to Tintern or Chepstow on the 69 as the border strays across the A466 between Redbrook and Bigsweir. Its a run I'd like to do with somebody else concentrating on the driving.

If you have a Wales pass, it's valid anywhere in Wales, plus all journeys into England as long as your journey starts or ends in Wales.

 

[Teapot42]

As someone born and brought up in the area, I can tell you that it's more the issue that if you live in upper Teesdale e.g. Middleton or one of the villages, it would be easier and more logical to travel to Darlington... in the past, they had direct services. However, even if you live in Barney, you're looking towards Darlington not Bishop!

Before we got a car I do recall day trips by bus from Easington to Barney, but back then there was a direct Sunderland to Bishop service, so it wasn't that difficult. I don't recall every travelling to Middleton in Teesdale before we got a car, and even Stanhope (in Weardale) wasn't that easy to get to, other than the occasional summer Sunday rail service from Bishop.

If you're living in places like Blackhall or Sedgefield, which granted are smaller, your focus is going to be Hartlepool or Stockton respectively. They have been outside of Co Durham for longer so the issue doesn't feel as pronounced, so I get you on that.

Easington is even odder in this regard - we'd go to either Sunderland or Hartlepool, both outside Co.Durham. I gather it's harder to get to Hartlepool these days since the 230 was replaced and everything goes through Peterlee now, but even then it's easier and quicker than getting to Durham. I'd say that even travelling from Peterlee - which is much better connected with Durham - you'd most likely head for Sunderland or even Middlesborough than in to Co Durham.

Don't forget that back in time Co Durham extended from Gateshead and South Shields down to Billingham and Stockton.

Moving area, the closer we get to SYMCA franchising the more concerned I'm getting that in information is coming out to suggest that cross border fares are even being considered. Much as I dislike the idea of large, privately owned bus companies operating for profit, the fact they tend to offer tickets which attract passengers to their services, regardless of which local authority they live in is a good thing, and one that franchising could well throw away if not properly considered.

 

[scottish rider]

Apologies - that's my fault that I hadn't spotted it was 21 years and below.

That does limit things and is a really daft rule as places like Newton Aycliffe, Bishop Auckland and Barnard Castle are very much linked to Darlington rather than places like Durham. In fact, in terms of public transport, Darlington is very much more linked to Co Durham (which it was historically part of) than Tees Valley

So it's really the Explorer North East (which I tend to buy anyway) but that's more expensive and doesn't cover the indies that now operate much of the tendered stuff in South West Durham.

Its disappointing when there has clearly been agreement reached for the Under 21 ticket to be valid on direct services into Tess Valley but not the adult ticket

 

[daodao]

And people may be sick of the cross-boundary issues being discussed on here but it will remain the elephant in the room until this country gets government structures that default to every county/ region working together and at a scale that fits today's travel patterns. Somewhat encouraged by how the Bee Network/ GM is seemingly working with its neighbours. The others need to be the same when they start franchising.

The arrangements for and provision of cross-boundary services from Greater Manchester into East Cheshire and Warrington deteriorated significantly when the third phase of the Bee Network/bus franchising was introduced by TfGM on 5th January 2025.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Its disappointing when there has clearly been agreement reached for the Under 21 ticket to be valid on direct services into Tess Valley but not the adult ticket

In fairness this isn't a unique situation (though I agree it's disappointing). For whatever reason some of the Greater Manchester "system one" tickets appear to have validity varying by age - the adult tickets extend across the county boundary in a few areas but seemingly the child ones do not.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The Transport North East ticket is valid from Co Durham to Darlington, Stockton and Hartlepool. The Tees Valley ticket (which might be a company initiative rather than a TVCA one) is rigidly only within the Tees Valley boundaries.

I wasn't aware of that - I had previously assumed validity ended at the boundary of the Durham County Council area.

Because it's only the Under 22 version that is valid over the boundary - the adult versions aren't.

That was my understanding of it too

The list of exceptions on the NECA website is quite something.

Bus Travel: areas and exceptions

www.northeast-ca.gov.uk

The 5, 7, and 8 from Newton Aycliffe to Darlington are not listed at all in the exceptions. Nor are many of the other cross-border routes between the NECA area and the TVCA area.

But two other routes which are the same- coming from County Durham into Darlington and Hartlepool- are listed:

59

Durham - Hartlepool

Durham Day and TNE Day Saver’s only applicable for journeys wholly within TNE zone. If boarding or alighting outside of zone the products are not valid.

84/84A

Darlington - Barnard Castle

Durham Day Rover and TNE Day Saver eligible for journeys as far as Ingleton Garths. If boarding or alighting outside of zone the products are not valid.

The U22 'get around for £1' ticket has the following validity:
Service 1 (Tow Law - Darlington),
Service 5 (Bishop Auckland - Darlington),
Service 7 (Durham - Darlington),
Service 8 (Spennymoor - Darlington),
Service X12 (Newcastle - Middlesbrough),
Service X22 (Sunderland - Durham),
Service 23 (Sunderland - Hartlepool),
Service 24 (Durham - Hartlepool),
Service 59 (Durham - Hartlepool),
Service X75/X76 (Barnard Castle - Darlington).

Confused? So am I.

Much as I dislike the idea of large, privately owned bus companies operating for profit, the fact they tend to offer tickets which attract passengers to their services, regardless of which local authority they live in is a good thing, and one that franchising could well throw away if not properly considered.

The situation in County Durham and northern North Yorkshire shows the situation perfectly.

The utility of the Explorer North East used to be much greater because Arriva used to operate a lot more. The buses from Bishop Auckland to Barnard Castle was Arriva, the bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton in Teesdale was Arriva, the bus from Barnard Castle to Richmond was Arriva, the bus from Darlington to Northallerton was Arriva, the bus from Northallerton to Ripon was Arriva. But gradually Arriva retrenched from these markets because they didn't think they were making the profits they wanted, so the routes ended up with the indies. Proctors/Dales and District had a lot of the routes at first, and now it is Hodgsons.

The attitude of the indies towards the Explorer has always been mixed. Weardale accepted it for a very long time, but only on the 101, but now they don't. Jayline in Peterlee accepted it, both before and after their acquisition by Go-Ahead. The likes of Scarlet Band never did. My understanding that Weardale eventually got fed up because the scheme works by the retailing operator keeping the revenue; as you can imagine, Weardale would be accepting more Explorers than they sell.

I think it is regrettable that acceptance of the Explorer North East was not included as a mandatory condition in the tenders. I don't even think it will have been about money- there will be a cost attached, but the ticket is fairly niche- rather that simply nobody will have considered it.

The arrangements for and provision of cross-boundary services from Greater Manchester into East Cheshire and Warrington deteriorated significantly when the third phase of bus franchising was introduced by TfGM on 5th January 2025.

I know you're local to the area and so I'd be interested in your thoughts, but the initial mess (and it was a huge mess) with the CAT5/5A looks to me to have been sorted. The CAT5 is back, the TfGM tendered service from Lymm has been binned off, and the 280 has been extended from Dunham to Warburton and Lymm.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The utility of the Explorer North East used to be much greater because Arriva used to operate a lot more. The buses from Bishop Auckland to Barnard Castle was Arriva, the bus from Barnard Castle to Middleton in Teesdale was Arriva, the bus from Barnard Castle to Richmond was Arriva, the bus from Darlington to Northallerton was Arriva, the bus from Northallerton to Ripon was Arriva. But gradually Arriva retrenched from these markets because they didn't think they were making the profits they wanted, so the routes ended up with the indies. Proctors/Dales and District had a lot of the routes at first, and now it is Hodgsons.

The North Yorkshire routes were surrendered when Richmond depot closed. The Richmond drivers were on lower pay rates than Darlington so they would've been loss making had Arriva run them from Darlington. That said, I remember (before Arriva) when they still had Ripon depot and the North Yorkshire network was much greater.

Similarly, Arriva had a lot more in SW Co Durham. They then decided close Bishop Auckland depot (apparently cos the roof needed work) and the solution was to consolidate ops in Belmont and Darlington.

The attitude of the indies towards the Explorer has always been mixed. Weardale accepted it for a very long time, but only on the 101, but now they don't. Jayline in Peterlee accepted it, both before and after their acquisition by Go-Ahead. The likes of Scarlet Band never did. My understanding that Weardale eventually got fed up because the scheme works by the retailing operator keeping the revenue; as you can imagine, Weardale would be accepting more Explorers than they sell.

Weardale was always the outlier. You're right in that it was about revenue apportionment and I think it was exacerbated after ENCTS introduction - perhaps people buying them to accompany a pass holder on a jolly? For many years, they only operated the 101/102 and the X21 Newcastle express (and as you say, it was never valid on there).

Very few indies were ever in the scheme - Travelsure eventually were, Jayline for a period as you say but struggle with any others. There were many more indies in that period (e.g. Griersons, Hunters, Diamond, Bob Smith, Gypsy Queen, North Rider, Burrells, Robsons) too.

In the late 1980s/early 1990s, it was a real pain as virtually all Sunday and evening services in SW Durham were operated by Eden or OK! Also, the 69 (no sniggering) was jointly worked between United (2 buses) and TMS (1 bus) and whilst they accepted each others returns, TMS did not accept Explorers and never did.

I think it is regrettable that acceptance of the Explorer North East was not included as a mandatory condition in the tenders. I don't even think it will have been about money- there will be a cost attached, but the ticket is fairly niche- rather that simply nobody will have considered it.

I've mentioned this before. I recall that there was an agreement/stipulation on some Northumberland tenders and indeed, I remember getting a Glen Valley bus from Wooler to Berwick and the ticket was accepted. I never saw it publicised though.

 

[daodao]

I know you're local to the area and so I'd be interested in your thoughts, but the initial mess (and it was a huge mess) with the CAT5/5A looks to me to have been sorted. The CAT5 is back, the TfGM tendered service from Lymm has been binned off, and the 280 has been extended from Dunham to Warburton and Lymm.

Further changes a few months ago have provided mitigation for the worst of the issues that were created by TfGM franchising and the introduction of the Bee Network in this area on 5th January 2025, but the through service between Altrincham and Warrington is still only hourly.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've mentioned this before. I recall that there was an agreement/stipulation on some Northumberland tenders and indeed, I remember getting a Glen Valley bus from Wooler to Berwick and the ticket was accepted. I never saw it publicised though.

I also think it was a condition on the Nexus tendered services, certainly back in the period when Nexus were trying to introduce their own branding for the tendered buses. I used it on Gateshead Central Taxis a few times, although I'm honestly not sure whether it was valid or whether the drivers thought it was a Nexus ticket or whether the drivers simply didn't care. Nothing was ever advertised.

It's slightly amusing that, now, the North East Explorer is valid- and quite useful- on the Carlisle city network yet it is not valid, and not useful, on much of the network in County Durham.

 

[Megafuss]

The North Yorkshire routes were surrendered when Richmond depot closed. The Richmond drivers were on lower pay rates than Darlington so they would've been loss making had Arriva run them from Darlington. That said, I remember (before Arriva) when they still had Ripon depot and the North Yorkshire network was much greater.

Similarly, Arriva had a lot more in SW Co Durham. They then decided close Bishop Auckland depot (apparently cos the roof needed work) and the solution was to consolidate ops in Belmont and Darlington.

Weardale was always the outlier. You're right in that it was about revenue apportionment and I think it was exacerbated after ENCTS introduction - perhaps people buying them to accompany a pass holder on a jolly? For many years, they only operated the 101/102 and the X21 Newcastle express (and as you say, it was never valid on there).

Very few indies were ever in the scheme - Travelsure eventually were, Jayline for a period as you say but struggle with any others. There were many more indies in that period (e.g. Griersons, Hunters, Diamond, Bob Smith, Gypsy Queen, North Rider, Burrells, Robsons) too.

In the late 1980s/early 1990s, it was a real pain as virtually all Sunday and evening services in SW Durham were operated by Eden or OK! Also, the 69 (no sniggering) was jointly worked between United (2 buses) and TMS (1 bus) and whilst they accepted each others returns, TMS did not accept Explorers and never did.



I've mentioned this before. I recall that there was an agreement/stipulation on some Northumberland tenders and indeed, I remember getting a Glen Valley bus from Wooler to Berwick and the ticket was accepted. I never saw it publicised though.

They used to highlight Explorer validity as a footer note on each timetable in what was the excellent public transport timetable book, which used to be £1!

I could never work out why some contract services allowed Explorer, while other didn't. For example the 764 from Consett to Wokingham only gave you a discount off the fare when travelling with an Explorer. I assume the revenue stayed where it falls and the chances of somebody dropping close to £10 at Consett on a bleak morning were ...slim

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's slightly amusing that, now, the North East Explorer is valid- and quite useful- on the Carlisle city network yet it is not valid, and not useful, on much of the network in County Durham.

It's the "Look North" Explorer (for those who know regional TV).

They used to highlight Explorer validity as a footer note on each timetable in what was the excellent public transport timetable book, which used to be £1!

I could never work out why some contract services allowed Explorer, while other didn't. For example the 764 from Consett to Wokingham only gave you a discount off the fare when travelling with an Explorer. I assume the revenue stayed where it falls and the chances of somebody dropping close to £10 at Consett on a bleak morning were ...slim

They did? That's solved it for me. I never saw it advertised but that's good to know it was somewhere.

I think I did that 764 about 15 years ago from Wolsingham to Consett which was an experience, paying the surcharge. That might have been shortly before they left the scheme.

More recently, probably c2021 as things were still a bit Covidy, I startled the 764 driver by catching the morning run from the edge of Tow Law; IIRC, it was still strictly cash!

I guess the reason why some contracts didn't accept it is because they were on a net cost basis?

 

[Teapot42]

... My understanding that Weardale eventually got fed up because the scheme works by the retailing operator keeping the revenue; as you can imagine, Weardale would be accepting more Explorers than they sell.
...

This sounds pretty similar to the complaints Hulleys had re the Derbyshire Wayfarer. They had to accept them on the Peak District services, but didn't sell many as most users originated in the more urban areas.

It sounded like there were talks to alter this model to more fairly apportion revenue - I'm not sure if anything came of this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I guess the reason why some contracts didn't accept it is because they were on a net cost basis?

My suspicion is that it simply isn't thought about in these days of the NECA having their own shiny day ticket.

I can't imagine the revenue loss from mandating the acceptance of Explorer would be significant. They're fairly niche tickets as it is and you know what bus spotters (the most common user of the ticket, I'd wager) are like: faced with a choice of paying £3 and going on the tendered service, or not paying £3 and not going on the tendered service, you know what most of them are going to choose.

As @Megafuss also wonders, I'm more curious about the contracted services where it was accepted.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My suspicion is that it simply isn't thought about in these days of the NECA having their own shiny day ticket.

I can't imagine the revenue loss from mandating the acceptance of Explorer would be significant. They're fairly niche tickets as it is and you know what bus spotters (the most common user of the ticket, I'd wager) are like: faced with a choice of paying £3 and going on the tendered service, or not paying £3 and not going on the tendered service, you know what most of them are going to choose.

As @Megafuss also wonders, I'm more curious about the contracted services where it was accepted.

You're probably right that whatever impetus to change Explorer has probably disappeared.

As for whatever routes did accept it, I think it was the 267/464/470/473 around Wooler, and seem to think the Bothal to Morpeth (436?), and 434 or 444 (?) Widdrington to Ashington

 

[Statto]

Which companies allow the use of the North East Explorer ticket kind of reminds me of the old Strathclyde Partnership For Transport (SPT) Day Tripper ticket, although it was valid on trains in the old Strathclyde region (before the boundary reorganization in the 1990s) it was not valid on all bus operators, McGill's refused to except the Day Tripper, but SPT have other tickets which has long been valid on all bus operators.

The SPT Day Tripper was withdrawn a couple of years ago largely i believe because SPT refused to update the ticket from scratch off ticket which is mad.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

This sounds pretty similar to the complaints Hulleys had re the Derbyshire Wayfarer. They had to accept them on the Peak District services, but didn't sell many as most users originated in the more urban areas.

It sounded like there were talks to alter this model to more fairly apportion revenue - I'm not sure if anything came of this.

Wayfarer may have been slightly different, High Peak had issues with the Wayfarer but I understand the issue was more that because it is accepted by the railways they took a higher proportion of the revenue than some operators felt was fair leaving less to be shared amongst the bus operators who were seeing the majority of the usage (not sure exactly what the mechanism is for the Wayfarer so there may be a sales related aspect to the income as well as usage). High Peak did actually pull out for a period but I believe that they didn't see a significant uptick in other ticket sales during that period so returned to the scheme, if the ticket is largely generating its own demand and not cannibalising demand from other ticket ranges then a lower reimbursement than optimum may as well be accepted as it is all extra revenue - if it had seen other sales increase I doubt they would have returned.

 

[Statto]

I would suggest that if TfGM excluded a route like the 199 from local ticketing schemes like London have chosen to do you would see the service cut back fairly significantly within Manchester as without the local traffic within GM it couldn't support that level of service - as has happened with cross boundary services into places like Sutton, Croydon & Romford. TfGM fund the £2 fare reduction as part of their ticketing system including all operators even those not in the Bee Network as I mentioned, it only applies within Greater Manchester not from New Mills which is in Derbyshire on High Peak services (the Bee Network buses may do so but they follow a different route to the High Peak ones until inside GM so it is not directly competitive).

Coming back to this post.

I caught the 199 yesterday (09.50 from Manchester Airport to Buxton) & the service was well used, even for that time of day, with plenty staying on beyond Hazel Grove & the GM boundary, & beyond New Mills cutting the route is not an option.