Cross Border Rolling Stock Compatibility

[Groningen]

In our first 3 country train from Aachen - Maastricht - Liege 3 languages are used. But the train stops/starts in Maastricht, because of problems with the Belgiums who want to use a security system needed in 3 to 5 years time.

 

[MarcVD]

In our first 3 country train from Aachen - Maastricht - Liege 3 languages are used. But the train stops/starts in Maastricht, because of problems with the Belgiums who want to use a security system needed in 3 to 5 years time.

The trains foreseen for this service are forbidden in Belgium because they do not have ETCS.

ETCS equipment for all new rolling stock is required by law in Belgium since 2015.

I do not see on which grounds a specific company should be given a waiver for that requirement. Besides that, if it were done, other companies might request the same or fill in a complain for unfair competition. This is the perfect can of worms that you do not want to open.

And finally, it is not true to say that it would only be needed in 3 to 5 years : 23% of the belgian rail network is already under ETCS control, and for the route we are speaking about, it is the case for the Liege Guillemins station.

If one chooses not to respect the law, he should not complain about the consequences afterwards.

 

[Groningen]

Hmm 23 % of Belgium and unfortunatly that includes Liege - Maastricht. So it is just bullying the neigbour country. The material now just is older than any of our Dutch material.

 

[swt class 450]

So when is the Arriva Netherlands train likely to run the full length from Aachen (Germany) to Maastricht (Netherlands) to Liege (Belgium)? How long will it take them to sort this issue out?

 

[MarcVD]

Hmm 23 % of Belgium and unfortunatly that includes Liege - Maastricht. So it is just bullying the neigbour country. The material now just is older than any of our Dutch material.

No, not the line 40. Just the station of Liège Guillemins.

And the rolling stock used today on this line is out just because no other one is allowed by dutch authorities. Otherwise SNCB would happily dispatch some Désiro EMUs over there...

 

[MarcVD]

So when is the Arriva Netherlands train likely to run the full length from Aachen (Germany) to Maastricht (Netherlands) to Liege (Belgium)? How long will it take them to sort this issue out?

Nobody knows. It went up to federal government level in Belgium and the transportation minister confirmed that no exception to the law would be allowed. And by the way, this is not an SNCB move to counter competition. The problem has been identifier by the SSCIF, the belgian rail regulation authority, under direct ministery control. SNCB has nothing to do with it.

 

[swt class 450]

So why won't Arriva Netherlands just fit all the necessary equipment to their Stadler Flirt trains so that SNCB/NMBS/NGBE will allow them in to Belgium? Why are they so reluctant to do so?

Also just out of interest why can't SNCB/NMBS/NGBE send their Siemens Desiro trains in to the Netherlands? What is required for them to have that prevents them from doing so?

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Also just out of interest why can't SNCB/NMBS/NGBE send their Siemens Desiro trains in to the Netherlands? What is required for them to have that prevents them from doing so?

The Desiros don't like the 1500V power supply in the Netherlands (the system produces a failure if Voltage drops below a certain amount and needs resetting by a technician).

 

[swt class 450]

Ah thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. It would be good if all the railways in Mainland Europe could eventually run to the same exact electrical systems. This sort of issue seems to cause lots of problems on many other cross border routes all over Mainland Europe unfortunately.

Also can i ask once the Arriva Netherlands service starts going to and from Belgium will the existing SNCB/NMBS/NGBE service between Liege and Maastricht stop running? Or will it continue running and the frequency will therefore double?

 

[SHD]

Harmonizing the power supply of electrical trains across Europe would require pharaonic Capex for minuscule benefits. Multisystem locomotives and EMUs have been around since the early 1960s (eg the CC40100 locomotive) and, most of the time, work properly.

Besides, good luck on finding a common ground between the 16.7 Hz, the 50 Hz, and the DC realms. Compared to that daunting task, finding a Brexit solution is a piece of cake.

Regarding the case discussed here, the specific practice of running a 3 kV DC train at half-power under 1.5 kV at the Belgian/Dutch border points was “easy” at the time of resistor-controlled EMUs and locomotives, less so today.

 

[MarcVD]

Just to be pedantic, once in a while, half tension does not imply half power, but a quarter of it. P=U**2/R, so if you divide the voltage by two, the power gets divided by four. It is a bit less true with power electronics (because R doesn't remain constant) but the principle stays.

And even the first generation of power electronics accepted very well to work at half tension. HLE 21 and 27 worked under 1500V with no issue. It's only with the current generation, where electricity is first rectified and then made 3 phase with variable frequency, that it became problematic. Real technical issue, or way for the rail industry to sell at higher price, that I don't know. But I have my doubts.

 

[AlexNL]

Arriva stated that their plan was to have ETCS fitted to the FLIRTs by 2021, when the line is equipped with ETCS. Now that the Belgian authorities refuse to certify the units for operation, it's likely that this is to be brought forward.

I'm not sure why the trains don't have ETCS from the get-go, though. My guess is that either Arriva or Stadler misinterpreted the Belgian law, or they were under the expectation that they could get a waiver. SNCB isn't really involved in this: they would be a subcontractor to Arriva, on Belgian soil the trains would be operated by Belgian staff under SNCB's licence.

 

[Spoorslag '70]

Didn't Arrive want to wait until the Dutch specifications are released? Not that that would make much sense, as (as far as I know) national values (i.e. specific behaviour of ETCS) can be changed by balise.

 

[swt class 450]

Would it be a fairly easy and simple procedure for Arriva Netherlands to fit the ETCS to their fleet of Stadler Flirt trains? What exactly is required to be done to install it on their trains?

 

[JonathanP]

I'm really not an expert, but from what I've heard it's more complicated that fitting an extra safety system normally would be.

With most safety systems, the modifications to the cab can be confined to mounting a seperate standard box or panel containing the necessary indicators and buttons in a spare place in the cab. For example, see any old BR locomotive that has been retrofitted with DRA and TPWS.

With ETCS it is mandatory to have a large integrated display which also shows the speed and will be the main focus of the driver when not looking out of the window. Look at the ETCS Class 37 Cab and you can see the the whole cab except for the control handles has been redesigned around the ETCS display.

The ETCS system apparently also requires extremely accurate speed information in order to work reliably, so the vehicle integration is not so straightforward.

 

[AlexNL]

The FLIRT3 trains ordered by Arriva will already have the necessary preparations for the installation of the ETCS equipment, as they anticipated full installation by 2021. The Belgian safety system (TBL1+) uses the ETCS balise readers, so those should already be present on the vehicle.

Stadler have delivered ETCS-fitted FLIRT3's in the recent past: the trains used by Abellio (Arnhem - Düsseldorf) and Eurobahn (Hengelo - Brake*) are fitted with ETCS equipment, the engineering done for those fleets should be reusable for the Arriva ones.

* They say it's a train to Bielefeld, but Eurobahn is obviously part of the conspiracy.