Cross-border penalty fares

[Krokodil]

then in any case you would be liable to a TFW penalty fare fare of only £20.

A bit of an anomaly picked up in the above quote. As I understand it, when the English law was changed there was an oversight in the Welsh Government and the Welsh law wasn't updated to match, so penalty fares issued in Wales are still under the old system. So what happens when a passenger travels from an English station (say Manchester Oxford Road) to a Welsh station? What happens when a passenger boards at Chester (where as far as I recall TfW have still put up the £20 posters, though a specific Merseyrail one may still be displayed over by 7B) and travels to another station in England? What if that journey from Chester to somewhere was on a Northern service?

 

[WirralLine]

A bit of an anomaly picked up in the above quote. As I understand it, when the English law was changed there was an oversight in the Welsh Government and the Welsh law wasn't updated to match, so penalty fares issued in Wales are still under the old system. So what happens when a passenger travels from an English station (say Manchester Oxford Road) to a Welsh station? What happens when a passenger boards at Chester (where as far as I recall TfW have still put up the £20 posters, though a specific Merseyrail one may still be displayed over by 7B) and travels to another station in England? What if that journey from Chester to somewhere was on a Northern service?

I cant answer the question, but Chester also has Northern £100 posters too. The TfW stations in England (Frodsham for example) have the TfW £20 penalty fare notices up. The notice on the down platform at Frodsham is a "from XX date we will be introducing penalty fares" so probably doesnt conform to the legislation anyway! (Not that you ever see RPIs up that way, theyre always too busy deployed at the same couple of places)

 

[soil]

A bit of an anomaly picked up in the above quote. As I understand it, when the English law was changed there was an oversight in the Welsh Government and the Welsh law wasn't updated to match, so penalty fares issued in Wales are still under the old system. So what happens when a passenger travels from an English station (say Manchester Oxford Road) to a Welsh station? What happens when a passenger boards at Chester (where as far as I recall TfW have still put up the £20 posters, though a specific Merseyrail one may still be displayed over by 7B) and travels to another station in England? What if that journey from Chester to somewhere was on a Northern service?

The law says, at Schedule 1
1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—

(a)the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;

(b)the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;

(d)subject to paragraph (da),]the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;

(da)in stations in England, the wording “A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable”;

(f)the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.


So that means that signage in Wales MUST be the £20 and in England MUST be £100 - otherwise the PF is not valid, under Regulation 6(2)(b).


And then under regulation 9:

9.—(1) Subject to paragraph (1A), Where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of that penalty fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable, whichever is greater.

(1A) In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—

(a)£100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable, or

(b)if paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the day following the day on which the penalty fare is charged, £50 plus the price of the full single fare applicable.

The term "in respect of England is defined" in the PFR:

"In respect of England” means, in relation to railway passenger services, a service which is not a service in respect of which the Welsh Ministers have the power to make penalty fares regulations under section 130(1) of the Railways Act 1993 (read with section 130(1ZA) to (1ZD) of that Act);]

This is defined therein as:

130 PENALTY FARES

(1)The Secretary of State, the Welsh Ministers and the Scottish Ministers shall each have power by regulations to make provision for and in connection with [penalty fares]

(1ZA) The power of the Welsh Ministers under this section to make provision for and in connection with the imposition of requirements on persons present on or leaving stations is exercisable only in relation to persons present on or leaving relevant Welsh stations in connection with the use of railway passenger services provided under Welsh franchise agreements or secured to any extent by the Welsh Ministers.

(1ZB)In subsection (1ZA) “relevant Welsh stations” are stations wholly in Wales that are used for the purposes of railway passenger services provided under Welsh franchise agreements or secured to any extent by the Welsh Ministers.

(1ZC)The power of the Welsh Ministers under this section to make provision for and in connection with the imposition of requirements on persons travelling by, present on or leaving trains is exercisable only in relation to persons—

(a)travelling by or present on trains in Wales used for the purposes of—

(i)a Wales-only service; or

(ii)any other railway passenger service provided under a Welsh franchise agreement or secured to any extent by the Welsh Ministers, except where subsection (1ZD) applies; or

(b)leaving such trains at stations wholly in Wales.

(1ZD)This subsection applies where—

(a)the next scheduled call to be made by the service is at a station wholly or partly in England and the previous scheduled call was at a station wholly in Wales (but not where the train is at a scheduled call wholly in Wales); or

(b)the next scheduled call to be made by the service is at a station wholly in Wales and the previous scheduled call was at a station wholly or partly in England.

It's worth understanding the timeline here:

* 1993 - Railways Act passed, SoS for GB can make PF Regs for GB
* 2005 - Railways Act modified, regs passed apply to England & Wales - Scotland has power to make own regs
* April 2018, SoS for GB makes The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2018, which apply to England & Wales, as per 2005 changes to RA 1993
* May 2018, Power to make PF Regs for Wales transferred to Wales (The Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (Railways) Order 2018) - existing April 2018 regs remain valid
* 2022 - The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 passed by SoS for GB increasing PF for England. Existing 2018 regs unaffected for Wales.

As of July 2025 Wales has yet to exercise its powers under the RA 1993, as amended, to make PFR, and as such the April 2018 regs apply there.

The 2022 regs however have to determine which matters are devolved to Wales (under the grandfathered 2018 regs), and which are under English law (the 2022 regs).

Those under 2018 regs are then
* TFW Wales trains (the Welsh franchise agreement - there are no trains "otherwise secured by Wales") only AND
* currently within in Wales AND
* not in between a Welsh and English station

2022 regs apply in all other cases, given the definition of "in respect of England" (a service which is NOT one that Wales could issue PF regulations for (not withstanding that it so far has not done so))

Trains in Wales are:

* TFW Rail - PF scheme

* Avanti, CrossCountry - no penalty fare
* GWR - penalty fare

According to GWR, their penalty fares don't apply in South Wales. As such the signage in, say, Cardiff, wouldn't list their name, and a penalty fare couldn't be issued to a GWR passenger who boarded in Wales.
However, if a passenger travelled from say Bristol Parkway they could be PFed at Newport, and the PF should legally follow the English rules, since English rules apply UNLESS it's a TFW Rail scheme.

In respect of TFW Rail services, based on 1ZA-1ZD then:
* the previous stop was in England, and so is the next one - £100 PF
* the previous stop was in Wales, and the next stop is in England, or vice versa - £100 PF
* alighting at an English station - £100 PF
* the previous stop was in Wales, and so is the next one - £20 PF
* alighting at a Welsh station £20

The TFW PF map seems to be invalid (yellow = £20 PF, red = £100 PF):

The offending stations are:

Lydney
Gloucester
Cheltenham Spa (**)
Hereford
Leominster
Ludlow
Craven Arms
Church Stretton
Shrewsbury (except towards Birmingham)
Gobowen
Yorton
Chester
Wem
Prees
Whitchurch
Wrenbury (no ticket buying facilities)
Nantwich
Crewe
Alderley Edge (**)
Wilmslow (**)
Stockport (**)
Manchester Piccadilly
East Didsbury (**)
Manchester Airport (**)
Manchester Oxford Road (**)
Newton-le-Willows (**)
Warrington BQ (**)
Runcorn East
Frodsham
Runcorn (**)
Liverpool Lime Street (**)
Liverpool South Parkway (**)
Helsby
Chester

** means - PF not applied for journeys starting at these stations.

All the above stations are in England, so a £20 PF sign would mean if boarding at such a station, the PF is void.

In addition the amount of a PF when alighting/departing/next calling at an English station is £100, so if issued a £20 PF that would also not be valid.

I believe that the ** stations are managed by other operators and have the legally required £100 signage, but that this doesn't feature TFW's logo, except between Birmingham and Shrewsbury, hence no PF.


The non ** stations are managed by TFW and would have illegal-in-England £20 signage, making PF from those stations void.

 

[fandroid]

Do you think the penalty fares appeal bodies would even begin to understand the implications of that?

 

[soil]

Do you think the penalty fares appeal bodies would even begin to understand the implications of that?

It would depend on the specific circumstances you were appealing under - that the signage MUST be £100 in England is pretty straightforward tbh.

In addition, it's my understanding that the final appeal panel consists of lawyers and people with legal experience, so it's more likely to succeed there.

 

[Krokodil]

Do you think the penalty fares appeal bodies would even begin to understand the implications of that?

Well I certainly can't make head or tail of it.

 

[Kite159]

...

It would depend on the specific circumstances you were appealing under - that the signage MUST be £100 in England is pretty straightforward tbh.

In addition, it's my understanding that the final appeal panel consists of lawyers and people with legal experience, so it's more likely to succeed there.

So appealing on the basis that the penalty fare should have been higher?

Can't see that winning with that argument alone

 

[soil]

So appealing on the basis that the penalty fare should have been higher?

Can't see that winning with that argument alone

That's very much a standard ground of appeal - the amount of the penalty fare is defined in law, and if it's not compliant the PF is not valid.

However, that's not the only ground of appeal - improper signage is also a ground, and it's not related to the amount of the PF, it's a question of whether or not PF signage on boarding was valid. This is extremely clear and unambiguous in the legislation - for stations in England signage MUST say £100, while for stations in Wales it MUST say £20.

There's nothing in the legislation that says that you can't board in Wales with £20 signage and then validly be PFed in England at £100, so it really isn't a question of "the PF should have been higher"