Critical Incident Debriefing

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm interested in the debriefing and counselling opportunities available to drivers after a critical traumatic incident (such as a one-under).

What happens to the driver after the event occurs?
Do they have a mandatory interview with their manager?
Is counselling available 24/7 for the immediate post-incident period, and is longer term counselling available if needed?
What support is given to drivers in order to facilitate their return to driving?
Can (and do) drivers refuse support after an incident?


I appreciate this is an emotive topic for many.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm interested in the debriefing and counselling opportunities available to drivers after a critical traumatic incident (such as a one-under).

What happens to the driver after the event occurs?
Do they have a mandatory interview with their manager?
Is counselling available 24/7 for the immediate post-incident period, and is longer term counselling available if needed?
What support is given to drivers in order to facilitate their return to driving?
Can (and do) drivers refuse support after an incident?


I appreciate this is an emotive topic for many.

If we take fatalities as an example

First point the BTP will speak directly to the driver to find out if it is suspicious or non suspicious, this is done straight away via radio. Driver will give a witness statement, and will be accompanied home.

Yes, but done informally in a general chat, to find out how and what happened.

Yes available straight away via a phone service iirc validium or similar, and lasts as long as needed by the driver.

Driver will return to his or her duties when they are ready to, first drive will be with a manager or instructor, maybe a phased return each case is sepertate. Also a year after the driver will be accompanied for there turn of dutie.

Each are to there own, some drivers are back next day. No help no nothing, others use all the support offered.

Hope that helps

 

[GB]

Do the drivers have to attend the inquest? I imagine that is a particularly difficult time if so.

 

[O L Leigh]

It used to be mandatory, but now it depends on whether or not the coroner feels there may be questions that need to be answered.

O L Leigh

 

[185]

First Transpennine Express... During the fatality, the conductor witnessed everything emerging from the rear of the train, it was disappointing to be told, "You couldn't really have seen it", "it must have been dark at 5am" (it was daylight) and "are you going to go off sick, you're booked to work tomorrow". Not once was I asked "are you okay?", "is there anything we can do" etc which is why I went sick, for the first time ever.

Another conductor, quite new approached me for advice after his (pretty bad) fatality. He wanted to return to work after just a few days, and I suggested speak to the guards manager who agreed with me and mentioned he should leave the revenue (tickets), just do doors and announcements for a few days. On the first train he worked at 7pm heading through Salford Crescent, a FTPE director, drunk, banged on his cab door. "WHY AREN'T YOU DOING TICKETS, WHAT DO YOU THINK WE PAY YOU FOR...etc". At Bolton, the train had to be cancelled after the guard, unsurprisingly, walked off. He still has her letter of apology, worth it's weight in gold.

Despite all this, during my time as a manager at FTPE, I am proud to say that there were a couple good managers, and the times I dealt with staff faced with fatalities, I at least tried to look like I cared... from personal experience, I know it's really, really not a nice experience.

 

[dk1]

Do the drivers have to attend the inquest? I imagine that is a particularly difficult time if so.

Our local coroner (now retired) tried not to involve the driver wherever possible. Thankfully both my fatalities did not require my attendance.

 

[scotraildriver]

We had a guy who had a nasty fatality and was then breathalysed by the BTP and sent for medscreen. Thankfully he received an apology.

 

[westcoaster]

We had a guy who had a nasty fatality and was then breathalysed by the BTP and sent for medscreen. Thankfully he received an apology.

this normally happens when the local police turn up first, something about there protocoll, i believe its now been changed but dont quote me on that. BTP would only test for cause and nothing else.

 

[O L Leigh]

Local plod seem to treat rail incidents the same as road traffic incidents because they don't know any different, bless them. I heard they turned up at a fatality on my old patch ahead of the BTP and were on the point of arresting the driver for failing to provide a specimen of breath when the BTP finally arrived.

O L Leigh

 

[scotraildriver]

Reminds me of a time the local plod turned up when some cows had been hit and he was talking on his radio about the eastbound and westbound carriageway.......... oh dear - after they parked their car ON a level crossing.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Reminds me of a time the local plod turned up when some cows had been hit and he was talking on his radio about the eastbound and westbound carriageway.......... oh dear - after they parked their car ON a level crossing.

Were both carriagewayslines blocked? hock:hock:hock:

 

[TDK]

1. The driver is spoken to by the signaller who will relay to the police if the incident is suspicious and notifies the BTP to attend.
2. The on call manager is notified and makes their way to the incident scene
3. The Coroner is called to the scene.
4. NR rail send a RIO to the scene.
5. The driver is spoken to by whoever needs to speak to them usually the BTP, RIO & the On call manager to make a short verbal statement.
6. The driver is accompanied by the on call manager to their place of work.
7. The driver is drugs and alcohol tested
8. The driver is asked to make a report
9. The driver's next of kin are notified by the on call manager
10. The driver is accompanied home by the on call manager and then the on call manager will sit with the driver as long as the driver wants them too.
11. The driver is booked off sick.
12. The driver is contacted within a week(if the wish to be) by a manager
13. The driver is offered counselling.
14. The driver after the authority of the councillor and the railway doctor will return to work on light duties.
15. The driver will slowly or as quickly as the driver wishes rehabilitated to the cab environment usually in a simulator.
16. The driver will when ready be rehabilitated to a real cab
17. The driver will go over the affected route in the 2nd mans seat with a manager.
18. The driver will get back into the seat on their own
19. The driver will drive over the affected route accompanied by a driver manager
20. The driver will be allocated a DI until the DI knows the driver is fit for duty.
21. The driver if requested will attend a coroners hearing in court and go through the trauma all over again

all this can take up to a year depending on the individual.

 

[SPADTrap]

1. The driver is spoken to by the signaller who will relay to the police if the incident is suspicious and notifies the BTP to attend.
2. The on call manager is notified and makes their way to the incident scene
3. The Coroner is called to the scene.
4. NR rail send a RIO to the scene.
5. The driver is spoken to by whoever needs to speak to them usually the BTP, RIO & the On call manager to make a short verbal statement.
6. The driver is accompanied by the on call manager to their place of work.
7. The driver is drugs and alcohol tested
8. The driver is asked to make a report
9. The driver's next of kin are notified by the on call manager
10. The driver is accompanied home by the on call manager and then the on call manager will sit with the driver as long as the driver wants them too.
11. The driver is booked off sick.
12. The driver is contacted within a week(if the wish to be) by a manager
13. The driver is offered counselling.
14. The driver after the authority of the councillor and the railway doctor will return to work on light duties.
15. The driver will slowly or as quickly as the driver wishes rehabilitated to the cab environment usually in a simulator.
16. The driver will when ready be rehabilitated to a real cab
17. The driver will go over the affected route in the 2nd mans seat with a manager.
18. The driver will get back into the seat on their own
19. The driver will drive over the affected route accompanied by a driver manager
20. The driver will be allocated a DI until the DI knows the driver is fit for duty.
21. The driver if requested will attend a coroners hearing in court and go through the trauma all over again

all this can take up to a year depending on the individual.

Thanks for the insight TDK, I put a lot of thought into this before applying and it was mentioned in my manager's interview. Certainly seems that after all that work if one has to attend the coroners hearing which would indicate a particularly horrific incident it could have the potential to undo all that work and return you to square one!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Thanks all for your replies. I'm looking into how other organisations manage critical incidents (and realising just how deficient mine is at managing them...).

 

[sonorguy]

I'm interested in the debriefing and counselling opportunities available to drivers after a critical traumatic incident (such as a one-under).

What happens to the driver after the event occurs?
Do they have a mandatory interview with their manager?
Is counselling available 24/7 for the immediate post-incident period, and is longer term counselling available if needed?
What support is given to drivers in order to facilitate their return to driving?
Can (and do) drivers refuse support after an incident?


I appreciate this is an emotive topic for many.

It's worth pointing out that Critical Incident Stress Debriefing (formal counselling immediately post-incident) has been discredited now, with little evidence to support it and a body of evidence to say that it actually makes outcomes worse rather than better.

What works far better is being able to talk to friends/family/peers in an informal way about the incident rather than trying to pathologise it in a medical sense. The military use a very successful system called TRiM,Trauma Risk Management that works on this principle.

The reactions that some/most staff/witnesses will have after something like a one under are normal reactions to a traumatic event and should resolve within a number of days. I always describe it to the soldiers that I see on operations as a normal reaction to an abnormal event.

It's only if they don't resolve after 1-2 weeks that it becomes an issue that might need looking at in more depth, normally by a limited session cognitive behavioural therapy, CBT, based method. If this is grasped early enough then it should be possible (or much more likely) to stop any development into full blown PTSD.

Hope that's of some use. If you want any further info re TRiM, which is a very effective tool, drop me a pm and I'll pass some on.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'll PM you now.

 

[Minilad]

For obvious reasons not everyone has the same experience after a traumatic event but I will attempt to put down here what happened with me.
I had a fatality in January 2012 on a level crossing. I won't give details but I will take you through what happened and the events following.

The level crossing in question is on a slight bend so I didn't have much of a sighting until I was virtually on the crossing. I just saw a person crouched down on the track side of the barrier. As I went past they ran into my path. I applied the emergency brakes and had got through to NR control via the E button on the NRN almost before I had come to a stand.
After around a minute they had confirmed the line was blocked so I had no need for emergency protection. After all the relevant details had been passed on they asked me to call the BTP fatality hot-line. I informed the guard what had happened and then called the BTP. They took a statement from me and basically asked me to sit tight until they could get out to me. This is now the worst bit. Sitting in the cab alone and having operated on adrenaline up until that point it finally hits you what has happened. I though was very fortunate in that I had a professional councillor travelling on the train. He had made himself known to the guard and asked if I would like him to come and sit with me. I am so glad he did. He knew exactly how to get me at ease and to take my mind off what had happened. Some of the things he said to me in the half an hour or so he was with me stick with me to this day.
Anyway after around half an hour or so we were joined by local police. They took me to one side and informed me that the person had intentionally taken his own life and that he was known to them. This was a massive weight off my shoulders as at that point I didn't know if it was just a tragic accident. Sounds weird but its somehow better knowing that the person had intended to do it. They took a statement from me and by the time that was finished NR and the on call manager from my company were present. After around an hour and a half we finally got moving. A relief driver took the train back to my depot. I sat with the manager and he took some notes on what had happened. When we arrived back he accompanied me home in a taxi.
I was tasked if I would contact my manager when I felt able to do so. I left it two days before I did so. They asked if I was OK to go in and do some paperwork and if not they could come to me. I decided to go in myself. I filled out the appropriate reports and accident book.
My manager then talked me through a few things but basically said take your time and don't worry about work.
I had annual leave booked for the following week anyway and had intended to spend the week on an all line rover. I talked it over with the councillor I had spoken to and he suggested that if I felt OK to carry on with my plans as it would be a good way to be around trains again without any responsibility. It would also allow me to gauge how I was feeling.
After a few days I received a call from the coroner who asked if I would give a statement to him. He was OK taking it over the phone but then sent me a copy of what he had written to sign. He said he would be in touch but didn't think I would be required to attend the inquest. As it turned out I wasn't.
After the week was up I felt a lot better about being around trains. At that point I was determined to get back to work sooner rather than later as I felt the longer I had off the harder it might be. I contacted work and informed them of this. I had a further week to myself but found myself wanting to be doing something as sitting around just meant I was thinking about things. My first day back involved going out with a manager. I was happy to drive as I wanted to get back into the saddle. I felt OK after the drive and told my manager I was happy to resume. I ended up having around 3 weeks off.
At all times I never felt any pressure to resume it was left totally up to me. I was offered help but I never felt the need to get any. I think that may have been different if I had not had the immediate help from the councillor on the train.

With regards to the list posted earlier in the thread I would like to add that the driver is not medscreened and is not placed "on the sick". I was put in chain of care and not sick leave.
Although that may vary from company to company. I also never had to get the OK from a company doctor as I had only been off 3 weeks. Longer periods off will require this though I believe.
The last thing I had in regards to it was a call from the coroner in May telling me the inquest had taken place and a verdict of suicide had been recorded.

Hope this has given people a bit of an insight. As I said every case is different though

 

[TDK]

For obvious reasons not everyone has the same experience after a traumatic event but I will attempt to put down here what happened with me.
I had a fatality in January 2012 on a level crossing. I won't give details but I will take you through what happened and the events following.

The level crossing in question is on a slight bend so I didn't have much of a sighting until I was virtually on the crossing. I just saw a person crouched down on the track side of the barrier. As I went past they ran into my path. I applied the emergency brakes and had got through to NR control via the E button on the NRN almost before I had come to a stand.
After around a minute they had confirmed the line was blocked so I had no need for emergency protection. After all the relevant details had been passed on they asked me to call the BTP fatality hot-line. I informed the guard what had happened and then called the BTP. They took a statement from me and basically asked me to sit tight until they could get out to me. This is now the worst bit. Sitting in the cab alone and having operated on adrenaline up until that point it finally hits you what has happened. I though was very fortunate in that I had a professional councillor travelling on the train. He had made himself known to the guard and asked if I would like him to come and sit with me. I am so glad he did. He knew exactly how to get me at ease and to take my mind off what had happened. Some of the things he said to me in the half an hour or so he was with me stick with me to this day.
Anyway after around half an hour or so we were joined by local police. They took me to one side and informed me that the person had intentionally taken his own life and that he was known to them. This was a massive weight off my shoulders as at that point I didn't know if it was just a tragic accident. Sounds weird but its somehow better knowing that the person had intended to do it. They took a statement from me and by the time that was finished NR and the on call manager from my company were present. After around an hour and a half we finally got moving. A relief driver took the train back to my depot. I sat with the manager and he took some notes on what had happened. When we arrived back he accompanied me home in a taxi.
I was tasked if I would contact my manager when I felt able to do so. I left it two days before I did so. They asked if I was OK to go in and do some paperwork and if not they could come to me. I decided to go in myself. I filled out the appropriate reports and accident book.
My manager then talked me through a few things but basically said take your time and don't worry about work.
I had annual leave booked for the following week anyway and had intended to spend the week on an all line rover. I talked it over with the councillor I had spoken to and he suggested that if I felt OK to carry on with my plans as it would be a good way to be around trains again without any responsibility. It would also allow me to gauge how I was feeling.
After a few days I received a call from the coroner who asked if I would give a statement to him. He was OK taking it over the phone but then sent me a copy of what he had written to sign. He said he would be in touch but didn't think I would be required to attend the inquest. As it turned out I wasn't.
After the week was up I felt a lot better about being around trains. At that point I was determined to get back to work sooner rather than later as I felt the longer I had off the harder it might be. I contacted work and informed them of this. I had a further week to myself but found myself wanting to be doing something as sitting around just meant I was thinking about things. My first day back involved going out with a manager. I was happy to drive as I wanted to get back into the saddle. I felt OK after the drive and told my manager I was happy to resume. I ended up having around 3 weeks off.
At all times I never felt any pressure to resume it was left totally up to me. I was offered help but I never felt the need to get any. I think that may have been different if I had not had the immediate help from the councillor on the train.

With regards to the list posted earlier in the thread I would like to add that the driver is not medscreened and is not placed "on the sick". I was put in chain of care and not sick leave.
Although that may vary from company to company. I also never had to get the OK from a company doctor as I had only been off 3 weeks. Longer periods off will require this though I believe.
The last thing I had in regards to it was a call from the coroner in May telling me the inquest had taken place and a verdict of suicide had been recorded.

Hope this has given people a bit of an insight. As I said every case is different though

This is interesting that you was not medi screened as all the inquests I have been to I have had to prove the driver was fit for duty. When I say a driver is booked off sick I should have said unavailable for duty. I must say that you must be an extremely strong person to return after 3 weeks and fair do's to you it must have been right for you. I have visited drivers before after 2 months and they are sitting in the corner of their living room crying their eyes out. As you said every case is different and you are correct in saying if the case is a suicide it is a lot easier for a driver to accept than if it is an accident and the 2 worst case scenarios are fatalities to children and fellow workers.

Not one case is the same but in my experience if the councillor says the driver is not fit for duty even if they think they are fit the company will not let them return to work.

 

[Minilad]

I did expect to be medi screened to be honest. But when I asked about it I was told it's not necessary. And speaking to colleagues who have been involved in fatalities since none of them have either.
With regards to returning after three weeks I was finding myself wanting to get out of the house and doing something as sitting around, usually alone, gave me time to think. The councillor I spoke to suggested getting back to a normal routine as soon as you are able is a good idea as it enables you to feel normality is returning to your life and that the incident isn't going to play on your mind. I found this to be good advice for me. Of course it may not be good for everyone.
Yes I still occasionally think of what happened. Usually if a colleague has a fatality for example. And I don't particularly like driving the unit I was driving on the day. But I don't feel the incident has left a scar on me, and I am grateful for that, as I know it could well have

 

[TDK]

I did expect to be medi screened to be honest. But when I asked about it I was told it's not necessary. And speaking to colleagues who have been involved in fatalities since none of them have either.
With regards to returning after three weeks I was finding myself wanting to get out of the house and doing something as sitting around, usually alone, gave me time to think. The councillor I spoke to suggested getting back to a normal routine as soon as you are able is a good idea as it enables you to feel normality is returning to your life and that the incident isn't going to play on your mind. I found this to be good advice for me. Of course it may not be good for everyone.
Yes I still occasionally think of what happened. Usually if a colleague has a fatality for example. And I don't particularly like driving the unit I was driving on the day. But I don't feel the incident has left a scar on me, and I am grateful for that, as I know it could well have

All I can say is well done for your personal efforts to combat such a traumatic experience as you say it is different for every individual.