Crisis at Bus Eireann

[Bletchleyite]

How I wonder does Scotland compare? Ireland is much more like Scotland (or Wales, perhaps) than England.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Indeed but I haven't seen any figures for Scotland as such and that Dublin figure is still high for an Urban center

The fact that the vehicles are purchased for BE/DB by the state every year also skews the picture somewhat, if you add that in to the subsidy it skyrockets even more.

Your average company getting PSO in England is going to have to work vehicle acquisition and purchase costs into their PSO offer, an issue DB/BE don't have.

Then you add the fact they don't need to pay commercial insurance and are self-insured.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then you add the fact they don't need to pay commercial insurance and are self-insured.

I'm sure I recall hearing that Stagecoach self-insured, though they probably have a re-insurance policy for very large claims.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The way CIE Group do it is they keep a ringfenced fund for claims and pay out of it,, but the benefit of that is they only pay out insurance claims that are made, as opposed to the rest of the operators who would be paying so much a year if anyone claims or not.

 

[DT611]

I believe in a system that serves the passenger and gives the population good value for the money that they pay in taxes, unfortunately the current system does neither because by default BE claim that every single city bus and commuter bus route in Ireland is not viable and must need PSO just because they say so.

No it's because many of the routes aren't commercially viable. We don't have the bus usage outside the intercity sector.

Here in the UK the system is broken, but the idea of the bus being commercial and if the commercial operators don't pick it up it is tendered is a far better way of doing things than just simply saying the bus is not viable without anyone having a go of proving otherwise as is the case in Ireland.

there is nothing stopping operators from setting up commercial routes if they wish. apart from the intercity sector and a small few local operators there is little interest because for the most part bus does not attract the patronage. the uk system is different yes but it isn't better in many ways. Isn't bus use declining outside london? That doesn't say the uk system is a better system to me.

This table is really shocking:

Subsidy per passenger journey

Ireland
Bus Eireann - €1.03
Dublin Bus - €0.47

UK
London - 23.5p
English metropolitan areas - 12.1p
English non-metropolitan areas - 15.0p

That's before you take into account the fact that the difference is greater in reality since in the UK the operators have to fund their own fleet whereas in Ireland that is one cost that doesn't exist.

those examples like london have the populations and the usage to allow for greater subsidy and to support ultra-low fares unlike ireland. Those using be for example are traveling longer journeys then would happen in london so the milage among other travel costs would make that figure high.

 

[ChrisPJ]

That last paragraph is utter nonsense, how is Dublin any different to larger UK cities? That subsidy figure implies massive inefficiency and poor organisation/management.

 

[F Great Eastern]

No it's because many of the routes aren't commercially viable. We don't have the bus usage outside the intercity sector.

How can you say they are not commercially viable if nobody has ever been allowed to run them commercially? You can't make that reasonable conclusion right now because of the fact is nobody has had a chance to do so, the contract has just been handed to BE for years on end and it's not viable because they say so, we know that the costs in BE are high, their plight on Expressway shows that they are way above the market which would effect the viability of those routes.

there is nothing stopping operators from setting up commercial routes if they wish. apart from the intercity sector and a small few local operators there is little interest because for the most part bus does not attract the patronage.

They cannot start up other routes because there is already an incumbent with free buses, virtually free insurance and €40m of taxpayer money every year that will quickly run them off the road, it's far from a level playing field, since PSO routes are not allowed to have a competitor, this will not change.

those examples like london have the populations and the usage to allow for greater subsidy and to support ultra-low fares unlike ireland. Those using be for example are traveling longer journeys then would happen in london so the milage among other travel costs would make that figure high.

What are you saying?

The subsidy per journey is much less in England and in London than it is in Ireland, because outside London operators only get paid to run a route when nobody else does, instead of the default in Ireland that every route in cities gets subsidy no matter what, the operators in the UK also have to buy their own vehicles and pay their own insurance, yet still require less subsidy despite the facts they have many costs that Bus Eireann simply does not have.

Once you add in the cost of all taxpayer contribution into the mix with Bus Eireann you would be paying almost €2 per journey and around €1 per journey to Dublin Bus which is eye-watering and massive and many many times higher than the figures what were posted in the other thread and also in this thread. They are far from an efficient operator although obviously that is not just because of them, more so that there has been no incentive for them to give good value for money until now on non commercial routes.

Also the claim that journeys are longer on Bus Eireann doesn't stack up either, because Bus Eireann operate high frequency city bus services in Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick etc and many very busy commuter routes. In England such routes would almost all be operated commercially and mostly routes that are operated as tenders in the UK would be evening/sunday or rural services, which would be considerably longer and carry less passengers than your average BE service.

In Ireland a tendered route can be a high frequency city service or a rural service, in the UK they're almost exclusively the latter which would drag the average journey length up whereas the first would drag the average journey down by a huge amount.

 

[F Great Eastern]

That last paragraph is utter nonsense, how is Dublin any different to larger UK cities? That subsidy figure implies massive inefficiency and poor organisation/management.

Every single regular city bus service in Dublin is deemed as being non-viable by default and an exclusive contract handed to Dublin Bus.

There is not a single one run commercially and nor have commercial operators had the right to start such services or tender for them.

On top of the subsidy the last few years has seen 90-100 buses purchased every year for Dublin Bus as additional Government capital investment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That last paragraph is utter nonsense, how is Dublin any different to larger UK cities? That subsidy figure implies massive inefficiency and poor organisation/management.

Does it? With exchange rates 47 cents per mile isn't very different from 24p per mile in london. It's a bit higher, but not hugely. And TfL buy many of the buses for the operators.

It's hard to show subsidy in England because so little is subsidised here. That sounds good until you realise that means you don't get evening and Sunday services in many towns and rural areas might only get one bus a week.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Does it? With exchange rates 47 cents per mile isn't very different from 24p per mile in london. It's a bit higher, but not hugely. And TfL buy many of the buses for the operators.

47c doesn't include vehicles, if you add vehicles in it's almost 90c for Dublin Bus.

The way it is funded since 2012 is PSO + Capital Grants.

Prior to 2009 it was one single PSO payment.

 

[Robertj21a]

Does it? With exchange rates 47 cents per mile isn't very different from 24p per mile in london. It's a bit higher, but not hugely. And TfL buy many of the buses for the operators.

It's hard to show subsidy in England because so little is subsidised here. That sounds good until you realise that means you don't get evening and Sunday services in many towns and rural areas might only get one bus a week.

TfL don't 'buy many of the buses for the operators'. They had to buy the NbfL (Borismaster) as they needed to ensure that sufficient sales were achieved for a bus which had received considerable investment, but is unlikely to have any significant second-hand value.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The unions have now stated that they cannot vote on the proposals anytime soon as they have to present it to their members and this must be done on a garage by garage basis and can only do one garage a day because of a strain on resources.

Therefore any cuts that Bus Eireann need to make are going to have to be postponed until all of these meetings have taken place and by current union estimates that will take approx three weeks before the meetings are complete and another week for the ballot in what is quite obviously delay tactics.

By that time they would have been able to finish balloting or will just be finishing balloting Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and School Bus Drivers for an all out transport strike. Bus Eireann drivers will also have been able to work some Bank Holidays to get extra pay in to make up some of what they lost on the strike to allow them to hold out longer in any strike.

There's also the prospect of the end of the school year and exams to use as a bargaining chip.

 

[robertclark125]

The unions may have that time on their hands, but does the financial life of Bus Eireann have it?

 

[DT611]

The unions have now stated that they cannot vote on the proposals anytime soon as they have to present it to their members and this must be done on a garage by garage basis and can only do one garage a day because of a strain on resources.

Therefore any cuts that Bus Eireann need to make are going to have to be postponed until all of these meetings have taken place and by current union estimates that will take approx three weeks before the meetings are complete and another week for the ballot in what is quite obviously delay tactics.

By that time they would have been able to finish balloting or will just be finishing balloting Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and School Bus Drivers for an all out transport strike. Bus Eireann drivers will also have been able to work some Bank Holidays to get extra pay in to make up some of what they lost on the strike to allow them to hold out longer in any strike.

There's also the prospect of the end of the school year and exams to use as a bargaining chip.

But the cuts have been implemented hence the strike in the first place. As management felt they had no option but to implement them straight away without agreement in the first place, i can't imagine they will postpone them.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The unions may have that time on their hands, but does the financial life of Bus Eireann have it?

That's the big question, considering they told the Labour Court they were insolvent it doesn't look good.

But the cuts have been implemented hence the strike in the first place. As management felt they had no option but to implement them straight away without agreement in the first place, i can't imagine they will postpone them.

The unions have not accepted the terms because that is why they did not go back to work and went to the Labour Court in the first place, the agreement with the Labour Court was that they will go back to work whilst they consider the deal on the old terms and the new terms proposed by the Labour Court will only apply if they vote for them.

If they really were on the new terms there would be no way that they are trying to drag out for over another month, they are simply going to try and fill their boots on the bank holidays to earn as much money as they can and get as many ballots throughout sister companies and other branches of BE complete so they can take out transport for the exam season in late May and early June.

 

[Mwanesh]

Why not just close the company.The government should just sell it off.Holding the nation at ransom.Try telling Stagecoach you are going on strike they will just bus in drivers from all over the country.The unions are being silly .This is what you get with a near monopoly.If passengers are coping now .They will never come back.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I'm sure I recall hearing that Stagecoach self-insured, though they probably have a re-insurance policy for very large claims.

iirc it;s the size of the excess on fleet polices that leads to this i remembver beign told the ambulance service has something like a 20 k excess per claim so most claims never go to the insurers

 

[DT611]

Why not just close the company.The government should just sell it off.Holding the nation at ransom.

Why would they simply close it down or sell it off. There would be no point. Nothing to be gained and we would have to rely on full private operation. The private companies here in ireland have unions and privatization doesn't stop strikes.

Try telling Stagecoach you are going on strike they will just bus in drivers from all over the country.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm nearly sure they have been effected by the odd strike over the years. Not a comparible or even relevant situation to ireland.

The unions are being silly .This is what you get with a near monopoly.If passengers are coping now .They will never come back.

As may be but this is nothing to do with a monopoly. Whether a monopoly does or doesn't exist won't make a difference as our unions will simply put any claims they need to make into all companies at the same time, meaning those companies who don't negotiate will likely face strike action around the same time. We don't know that passengers coped or not during the strike. Some will have just about and others not so.

 

[radamfi]

As may be but this is nothing to do with a monopoly. Whether a monopoly does or doesn't exist won't make a difference as our unions will simply put any claims they need to make into all companies at the same time, meaning those companies who don't negotiate will likely face strike action around the same time. We don't know that passengers coped or not during the strike. Some will have just about and others not so.

Are any of the private bus companies in Ireland suffering from strikes at the moment?

 

[philthetube]

I can imagine that if that is not sorted by the summer school hols bus they might just say forget it, closed down for 7 weeks anyone who wants a job after then sign here.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Nothing to be gained and we would have to rely on full private operation. The private companies here in ireland have unions and privatization doesn't stop strikes.

Nobody is proposing de-reg in Ireland, what has been proposed is a model similar to London where many different operators tender for routes to give value for money and Transport for Ireland run the network, however to date there has been a lot of pushback from state companies and unions against providing a single Transport brand due to fears of loss of influence/power.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm nearly sure they have been effected by the odd strike over the years. Not a comparible or even relevant situation to ireland.

I agree it's not, a strike by one company or Stagecoach does not bring 95% of city bus services outside the capital city to a halt, because they do not have a monopoly, in Ireland one operator can take bus transport out for the majority of the country, and if they don't get their own way they'll take out all the rail services and bus services in the one city that isn't directly effected as well.

As may be but this is nothing to do with a monopoly. Whether a monopoly does or doesn't exist won't make a difference as our unions will simply put any claims they need to make into all companies at the same time, meaning those companies who don't negotiate will likely face strike action around the same time.

Can you show me a situation in the UK where multiple operators serving the same area have gone on strike at the same time that are owned by different companies? Can you also show me an example of when a non CIE company has gone on strike at the same time as a CIE company?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Why not just close the company.The government should just sell it off.Holding the nation at ransom.Try telling Stagecoach you are going on strike they will just bus in drivers from all over the country.The unions are being silly .This is what you get with a near monopoly.If passengers are coping now .They will never come back.

The trouble is, outside the Intercity routes, most of the public don't have a choice, it's the Commercial Intercity part of Bus Eireann that is heavily losing money so this strike is not going to help with that and is simply going to make it worse.

They have protected monopoly on 95% of city bus routes in the country outside Dublin (which the monopoly is held by Dublin Bus) rural routes and commuter routes so passengers served by these are left without any services, so not everyone is going to get by.

I also cannot see anyone buying the company, with unions that have such a stranglehold on it, perhaps their assets and route licenses for commercial routes, but not the company itself.

 

[Robertj21a]

Presumably, it's the unions that need sorting out and bringing into the 21st century, rather that simply the bus operator(s) ?

 

[Mwanesh]

Presumably, it's the unions that need sorting out and bringing into the 21st century, rather that simply the bus operator(s) ?

Well said soon the company will go under .Let them carry on .I am a union man myself but i need to look at the longer term job security .As it stands the unions are loosing public sympathy.

 

[Hadders]

iirc it;s the size of the excess on fleet polices that leads to this i remembver beign told the ambulance service has something like a 20 k excess per claim so most claims never go to the insurers

A former employer of mine used to self insure. As seem to remember that the policy they had (to satisfy the minimum legal requirement) was for 3rd party only with a £1 million excess. Anything below this they just paid from their own self insurance fund.

 

[ChrisPJ]

This whole thing is painful to watch. Bye bye BE it was nice knowing you.

 

[DT611]

Presumably, it's the unions that need sorting out and bringing into the 21st century, rather that simply the bus operator(s) ?

No . The unions are fine. They make mistakes like all human beings but other then that they are fine and do what they get paid for.
The bus operator does need sorting out as it has been over-benefiting the staff in terms of allowences and overtime to keep things together.

Well said soon the company will go under .Let them carry on .I am a union man myself but i need to look at the longer term job security .As it stands the unions are loosing public sympathy.

Losing public sympathy won't make a difference in ireland to strikes. there are examples where Workers who had lots of sympathy didn't get a good deal with those having none getting decent ones. Public sympathy is not reliable as an indicator for anything in relation to irish strikes.

 

[Robertj21a]

No . The unions are fine. They make mistakes like all human beings but other then that they are fine and do what they get paid for.
The bus operator does need sorting out as it has been over-benefiting the staff in terms of allowences and overtime to keep things together.

.

I think you've taken me a bit too literally.

Isn't it the Irish laws affecting Unions that may need updating ?

 

[DT611]

I think you've taken me a bit too literally.

Isn't it the Irish laws affecting Unions that may need updating ?

The laws in relation to trade unions in ireland don't need updating, they are perfectly fine and they offer the relevant protections to insure unions and staff don't go overboard in terms of any action.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Sympathy striking shouldn't be allowed, you should only be allowed to strike if you have an issue with your employer in my view.