Crewe to Holyhead 10:49

[gooses]

I wonder if anyone could shed any light on why advance first class fares don't seem to exist specifically between Crewe and Holyhead on the 10:49 Virgin service. Fares are available (both with and without a railcard) from London, Milton Keynes and Chester - but inexplicably not Crewe. Any suggestions?

 

[yorkie]

They do exist in Avantix, priced at £20.00 single.

FCS - ADVANCE 1ST VWC
00474 - VIRGIN TRNS ONLY

1 Adult @£ 20.00 = £ 20.00
__________
£ 20.00

First Class Single

I randomly chose 20 July and 2 August to see if this fare was available. It was not, the fare is greyed out. However Standard Advances were available priced at £9.50. I used WebTIS (East Coast). I can offer no explanation for this.

 

[gooses]

They do exist in Avantix, priced at £20.00 single.

I randomly chose 20 July and 2 August to see if this fare was available. It was not, the fare is greyed out. However Standard Advances were available priced at £9.50. I used WebTIS (East Coast). I can offer no explanation for this.

Yes - I misuse the term "exist" here! The fare can be found (both discounted and undiscounted) yet doesn't seem to be bookable anywhere (have tried the usual booking engines) for any particular date (next week or in July/August).

 

[yorkie]

I'd ask Virgin, as this is quite strange. Perhaps someone here will know the answer, but I suspect the only way to find out is to ask Virgin. Please let us know if you get a response

 

[Paul Kelly]

It may depend on which booking engine you use and the way it interprets the fares database. There is some ambiguity on this flow. Virgin have a flow defined between cluster T122:

0435 LIVERPOOL STNS	1227 CONGLETON	2513 FLINT	2871 MACCLESFIELD
0438 MANCHESTER STNS	1243 CREWE	2599 BOLTON.	4487 WREXHAM GENERAL
0445 WARRINGTON STNS	2291 RUNCORN.	2771 STOCKPORT.	
0446 WIGAN STATIONS	2412 CHESTER.	2774 WILMSLOW

and cluster T127:

2437 HOLYHEAD.	2471 BANGOR (GWYNEDD)

which is routed VIRGIN TRNS ONLY and contains the following fares:

FIRST CLASS
FCS  ADVANCE 1ST	VA	1ST  SINGLE	ADULT: £20.00	CHILD: £10.00
PCF  COMP FIRST			1ST  SINGLE	ADULT: 5p	
STANDARD CLASS
VDS  ADVANCE	VR		STD  SINGLE	ADULT: £9.50	CHILD: £4.75
PCS  COMP STANDARD		STD  SINGLE	ADULT: 5p

However they very confusingly also have an additional flow defined directly between Crewe and Holyhead, also routed VIRGIN TRNS ONLY, which contains the following fares:

FIRST CLASS
TVS  TRAVELLER			1ST  SINGLE	ADULT: 5p	CHILD: £5.00
PCF  COMP FIRST			1ST  SINGLE	ADULT: 5p	
STANDARD CLASS
PCS  COMP STANDARD		STD  SINGLE	ADULT: 5p

It is not defined anywhere which one should take precedence and may depend on the programmer decoding the fares information. The software I have written overrides the first flow because the second one is defined more precisely, and thus also misses out the advance fares like WebTIS does. This is definitely the right way to do things for a lot of circumstances, e.g. fares between Headingley and York are defined both as part of a cluster-to-cluster flow for surrounding stations (the two clusters also contain Leeds and York respectively and the flow is priced by Transpennine Express), but also directly between the two stations (flow priced by Northern), and it is correct that this more precisely-defined flow "wins out". In this Virgin case it is more ambiguous and also complicated by the fact that the fares in the second flow are defined as "non-derivable fares". I don't agree with the way Avantix does it; I think Virgin's data is wrong (and they need to remove the second flow seeing the fares are already defined in the first) - but the reasoning behind that is wayyyy too complex to start to describe here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although that wouldn't explain the standard advance appearing and the first advance not...

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm afraid i can't say why VT have done this, but what I can say however, is that you used to be able to book a more expensive Advance First (and standard) ticket between Crewe/Chester (both the same price) and Holyhead up until roughly a year or two ago. I've a feeling it may have been either the "BGO" or "BHO" range of fares in FC.

More recently as others have said, VT have completely removed the more expensive FC advance fares, leaving just the very cheapest FCS available.

Whenever this is available, it appears only bookable between Chester and Holyhead on the 10:49 ex Crewe, and sometimes Crewe-Holyhead on the 06:24? ex Crewe.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That sounds more sensible - the fare is greyed out because there is no quota available for it on the train; maybe my delve into the structure of the fares database was a red herring then.

 

[gooses]

I've been in touch with Virgin today to ask about this. Apparently I have "uncovered a problem" which is in the hands of the "retail support team" - with someone in customer services reporting back to me. Their initial reasoning for the absence of tickets is that the train divides at Crewe (having been a double from Euston) and consequently the system won't sell fares on it. Apparently. I await further news.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Thanks very much for that Gooses, that would be great, although having said that the Super Voyagers divide at Chester, with the rear set forming the 11:35 Chester to Euston. It has been known to devide at Crewe sometimes, but usually only when it's running rather late.

 

[All Line Rover]

NRE sell £20 First Class fares on that service for almost all future dates.

 

[gooses]

NRE sell £20 First Class fares on that service for almost all future dates.

Yeah, they do now. Haven't heard back with any more news as yet, but just searched a fare and saw it was now available. So, extraordinarily, it may have been fixed...!

 

[voyagerdude220]

 

[gooses]

:d :d

I take ALL the credit *shifties*

 

[voyagerdude220]

I take ALL the credit *shifties*

lol fair enough

 

[gooses]

Hmm, having said that - I notice there are still no fares available in the opposite direction. Perhaps this is a work in progress...

 

[voyagerdude220]

Yeah I noticed the 13:58 ex Holyhead and earlier 221's aren't showing any FCS fares Holyhead to Crewe yet.

As you said yourself, probably a work in progress.

 

[gooses]

So a few more fares seem to have popped up now. And I had written confirmation from Virgin customer services (a week after my call) saying that there really had been a problem which has been "fixed". Was able to buy a ticket for the service I wanted on Tuesday and had one of the best experiences I've ever had in Virgin 1st class - pretty decent for £13.20...

 

[All Line Rover]

So a few more fares seem to have popped up now. And I had written confirmation from Virgin customer services (a week after my call) saying that there really had been a problem which has been "fixed". Was able to buy a ticket for the service I wanted on Tuesday and had one of the best experiences I've ever had in Virgin 1st class - pretty decent for £13.20...

That's great. Obviously the peak time evening trains from London to Holyhead don't have any Advance fares, and the peak time morning trains from Holyhead to London don't have any either, but that is understandable as the trains can be packed.