Crewe to Chester. How can electrification be utilised?

[jones_bangor]

A well-timed cross-platform connection is not enough, it would need to be a guaranteed connection. A late incoming train would hold the departing connection, unless it was so late as to connect with a later departure.

Running those connecting Voyagers onward to somewhere East of the Pennines makes a lot of sense.

One option not discussed would be to give ATW a number of Voyagers for Llandudno - Manchester and Holyhead - Euston services (maybe a bit blue sky!)

 

[Nym]

And utterly pointless...

Well the Llandudno - Manchester section anyway.

Holyhead - Euston with ATW would just be another layer of complication to the WCML, and then they'd proberbly do what the rest of arriva did and disable EPS so then slowing down the services.

What needs doing regardless of CRE - CTR electrification is the 221 fleet being electrodieselified with two extra carrages each. And some more 390s ordered for the BHM - Scotland route. Then more doubled up 221s can run, and they'll also be longer, and they would be able to split at CRE for a 2nd destination in the North West. Such as a 2nd Liverpool service (Via St Helens), Blackburn via Preston or Bradford via Manchester Victoria service...

If CRE - CTR does get electrified then with some clever timetabling and holding on to some of this new electrodisel fleet (other off wires services would make their use viable and worth holding on to a bigger fleet, I'm thinking Blackburn via Manchester or Preston, Bradford via Summit Tunnel, Southport, Barrow, etc. etc. I'd be thinking of a standard hourly path into Crewe with an assortment of off wires services throughout the day) anyway, some clever timetabling would allow every other service to continue to Holyhead (& Llandudno?) Splitting at Llandudno Juncrion. It would also mean only having to fire up the diesel half way between Crewe and Chester (to get them warmed up ready) And keeping the same sized 221 fleet with ICWC will allow a more effective use of their paths for more off wires services, that will become even more pertinant when (if) HS2 happens as the WCML will be used to provide more reigonal journeys.

PS: If the EDMU 221 fleet was employed more perminanly, it doesn't just need to be for off wires services north of Crewe, it could be used to extend one or more of the sevices that run through Birmingham New Street, either down towards Gloucster or Shrewsbry. Either would be well welcomed I feel, restoring lost links to London.

And while the're at it, do the same to the 220 and 221 fleet at XC (putting the shops back in!) and the 222 fleet at Midland Mainline, then we can scrap the idea of new bi mode IEP units simply by electrifying the Midland Mainline all the way to Leeds and Doncaster (and York via Leeds possibly) and suddenly the IEP becomes a lot cheaper. (Can you tell this is a pet gripe of mine?)

 

[tbtc]

What needs doing regardless of CRE - CTR electrification is the 221 fleet being electrodieselified with two extra carrages each. And some more 390s ordered for the BHM - Scotland route. Then more doubled up 221s can run, and they'll also be longer, and they would be able to split at CRE for a 2nd destination in the North West. Such as a 2nd Liverpool service (Via St Helens), Blackburn via Preston or Bradford via Manchester Victoria service...

If CRE - CTR does get electrified then with some clever timetabling and holding on to some of this new electrodisel fleet (other off wires services would make their use viable and worth holding on to a bigger fleet, I'm thinking Blackburn via Manchester or Preston, Bradford via Summit Tunnel, Southport, Barrow, etc. etc

If the Voyagers are spared from the Chester line then they are really needed for a capacity boost to existing services on XC, not on speculative new routes like London - Barrow in Furness.

We don't have the luxury of spare capacity to allow these kind of routes (one reason I am generally against Open Access whilst we have two coach Sprinters/ four coach Voyagers crammed full of passengers between large cities)

 

[Nym]

If the Voyagers are spared from the Chester line then they are really needed for a capacity boost to existing services on XC, not on speculative new routes like London - Barrow in Furness.

We don't have the luxury of spare capacity to allow these kind of routes (one reason I am generally against Open Access whilst we have two coach Sprinters/ four coach Voyagers crammed full of passengers between large cities)

OK, some of the routes I'd be looking at running would run in the path of an existing service allowing that TOC to take away that services and spare them the stock.

eg. Euston - Bradford via Manchester Victoria would run in the path and calling pattern of a current Calder valley express service, and either run through to Leeds or cut the service in half.

A second hourly service to Liverpool (splitting two voyagers at Crewe) is being cried out for anyway, as is a second hourly to Preston (that could be extended onto Blackpool or Blackburn).

The same for Shrewsbury, it would run in the path of the current ATW service, and take over from it. Splitting the service at Shrewsbury.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A well-timed cross-platform connection is not enough, it would need to be a guaranteed connection. A late incoming train would hold the departing connection, unless it was so late as to connect with a later departure.

I honestly feel that if I want to make a long journey from one destination to another by rail, that is possible without changing en route, this is what I would deem as the optimum method of travel. Why should I consider changing services, just because it would fit in nicely with the train patterns of the TOC. There is nothing worse than making changes during a journey, when there is no need for this to happen. I have had enough experiance of changing at Leeds and having to carry heavy cases up and down stairs.

To me, I want to get from "a" to "b" on a long journey, with the least possible difficulty, and if rail offers this facility, I will always use it in preference to any other mode of travel. But if another mode of travel offers a direct through journey and the train journey requires a change, then I will choose the other option. To me, the train is just one mode of travel, albeit enjoyable, but there is no divine right to use rail travel in preference to any other mode of travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK, some of the routes I'd be looking at running would run in the path of an existing service allowing that TOC to take away that services and spare them the stock.

The same for Shrewsbury, it would run in the path of the current ATW service, and take over from it. Splitting the service at Shrewsbury.

Can you clarify a little further what you mean by what you say about Shrewsbury above and the splitting of the existing service as similar to that run by a TOC, as this will mean two services from that point onwards.

 

[merlodlliw]

One option not discussed would be to give ATW a number of Voyagers for Llandudno - Manchester and Holyhead - Euston services (maybe a bit blue sky!)

ATW & London, not after the last episode,

I will agree the West/East needs extra capacity, Manchester to Chester this afternoon was standing room only out of Pic on the ATW to Chester commuter,.lucky I got to the door first.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

let's not forget Dublin and Ireland, which the North Wales Coast line serves!!

Stena are cutting the Holyhead-Dun Laoghaire link for the winter.
Won't do much for the line's international status...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-14721882

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Incorrect there only cutting the fuel murdering HSS service the Traditional service remains

 

[Rhydgaled]

Incorrect there only cutting the fuel murdering HSS service the Traditional service remains

If that was the case it is old news as, I believe, the HSS was cut from the Holyhead-Dun Laoghaire link (which is a fast ferry, the slow ones go to Dublin Port instead of Dun Laoghaire I think) in at least one recent winter. Back then it was replaced by the smaller Stena Lynx fast ferry from the Fishguard - Rosslare seasonal route (traditional ferry all year round). Form the wording of the linked article it sounds like both the Lynx and the HSS, rather than just one or other of them, will be out of service in winter now.

Why oh why can't these rising fuel costs start putting airlines out of profit and having to cut services too?

 

[merlodlliw]

Incorrect there only cutting the fuel murdering HSS service the Traditional service remains

A piece of history gone forever. Unless a change of mind & the statement is wrong all Stenna will go to Dublin

Big article about it months ago in the press & Rail Forums.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why oh why can't these rising fuel costs start putting airlines out of profit and having to cut services too?[/QUOTE]


Due to Places like Manchester airport having stations & easy to get to, they are the new travel terminals with 24 hour trains 7 days a week

Holyheads downfall, although nearer to Dublin takes far longer to get to,say from Manchester and cheaper by air, plus loss of Holyhead freighliner dept to Liverpool. and of course air travel is cheaper for foot passengers of which 98% have switched from rail.

Arrive at Holyhead on the late Saturday ferry from Dublin & wait 8 hours for a train now the winter timetable starts on Sunday. Its Bus/car or nothing.

Eight hours on Holyhead station between 1.00a.m. & 10.00a.m in Winter may be exciting for a few rail addicts, think I would chose to spend the night at Lennon or Ringway,food/drink/warmth/security. My opinion of course

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Due to places like Manchester airport having stations & easy to get to, they are the new travel terminals, with 24 hour trains 7 days a week. Eight hours on Holyhead station, between 1.00 a.m. & 10.00 a.m in Winter may be exciting for a few rail addicts.....I think I would chose to spend the night at Lennon or Ringway, food/drink/warmth/security. My opinion of course

Bob, your opinion is faultless in the summing-up that you have stated above. The flights from Britain to Eire have made the choice for intending passengers far easier to accept in terms of the lack of the need to travel to Holyhead as part of a journey from Britain to Eire.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Arrive at Holyhead on the late Saturday ferry from Dublin & wait 8 hours for a train now the winter timetable starts on Sunday. Its Bus/car or nothing.

Eight hours on Holyhead station between 1.00a.m. & 10.00a.m in Winter may be exciting for a few rail addicts, think I would chose to spend the night at Lennon or Ringway,food/drink/warmth/security. My opinion of course[/QUOTE]

Absolutely agree, Holyhead is a soulless place to wait, and I can't even imagine that nine hours in winter could possibly be exciting even for rail addicts (suspect that comment was made with a hint of irony!)
I will be returning from Dublin on the late ferry in a couple of weeks and I have no choice but to leave my car at the port.
I'm afraid Holyhead as a destination in itself leaves a great deal to be desired, I always wonder how the many excursionists who travel on steam specials along the N Wales coast fill their time when they arrive............

 

[merlodlliw]

Arrive at Holyhead on the late Saturday ferry from Dublin & wait 8 hours for a train now the winter timetable starts on Sunday. Its Bus/car or nothing.

Eight hours on Holyhead station between 1.00a.m. & 10.00a.m in Winter may be exciting for a few rail addicts, think I would chose to spend the night at Lennon or Ringway,food/drink/warmth/security. My opinion of course

Absolutely agree, Holyhead is a soulless place to wait, and I can't even imagine that nine hours in winter could possibly be exciting even for rail addicts (suspect that comment was made with a hint of irony!)
I will be returning from Dublin on the late ferry in a couple of weeks and I have no choice but to leave my car at the port.
I'm afraid Holyhead as a destination in itself leaves a great deal to be desired, I always wonder how the many excursionists who travel on steam specials along the N Wales coast fill their time when they arrive............[/QUOTE]

Irony it was, long gone are the days of the 0055 and 0120 Euston services on a Sunday morning, the only attraction will be WAG1 (57) with its engine ticking over which appears never to be shut down.
Colwyn Bay was known as a graveyard with lights, suppose Holyhead on a Sunday morning is even worse. "There is no escape" in a German accent.

Bob