Crewe to Chester. How can electrification be utilised?

[northwichcat]

If we counted how many times someone has said electrify Crewe-Chester on this forum then it must run in to the hundreds. However, people always seem to stop short of saying how electrification can effectively be utilised - other than indirectly saying it doesn't matter about North Wales having through London services.

I've just worked out the Voyager diagrams for London-Chester/North Wales and currently there doesn't appear to be any Voyagers used on Chester-London services which don't do at least one extension in to North Wales per day, there's even two Voyagers that only do Holyhead-London services.

Keeping a timetable similar to the current one I can see Pantograph vehicles for Voyagers being the only option, unless Chester-Holyhead is electrified.

With a timetable recast it should be possible to go 50% 5 car Pendolinos and 50% 5 car bi-mode Voyagers, assuming the two would be able to work together in multiple.

Alternatively, another way also involving a timetable recast and short Pendolinos would be to run a London to Chester/Liverpool portion working, then to run the Holyhead-London services using 5 car Voyagers with a pick-up/set-down restriction at Chester to avoid them getting too packed south of Chester. This would, however, use extra WCML paths and significantly reduce the chance of increased frequency on Preston-London and direct Blackpool-London services.

 

[tbtc]

I've argued previously for the following services:

Birmingham - Holyhead (05.30 ex Birmingham - 08.23 into Holyhead, as now)

Holyhead (08.55 departure, as now) - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton (via Walsall/Nuneaton *or* Birmingham/Coventry) - London

Plus afternoon/evening return.

This allows the Voyager to be maintained at Central Rivers by XC alongside all their other Voyagers, it allows the London - Chester service to be an hourly EMU (whether 390 or otherwise), it means Wrexham/ Shrewsbury (and maybe Walsall) all have a daily London service, it means that all Voyagers can go to XC (albeit one a day used on this Holyhead service), it means Virgin use EMUs on Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh too.

If the WAG want electrification to Holyhead then they can pay for it.

 

[northwichcat]

I've argued previously for the following services:

Birmingham - Holyhead (05.30 ex Birmingham - 08.23 into Holyhead, as now)

Holyhead (08.55 departure, as now) - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton (via Walsall/Nuneaton *or* Birmingham/Coventry) - London

Plus afternoon/evening return.

This allows the Voyager to be maintained at Central Rivers by XC alongside all their other Voyagers, it allows the London - Chester service to be an hourly EMU (whether 390 or otherwise), it means Wrexham/ Shrewsbury (and maybe Walsall) all have a daily London service, it means that all Voyagers can go to XC (albeit one a day used on this Holyhead service), it means Virgin use EMUs on Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh too.

If the WAG want electrification to Holyhead then they can pay for it.

I'm assuming you'd also propose Holyhead/Bangor-Chester/Crewe services with connections to London in place of the through London services. If not, I'm sure ORR would reject any such proposal. If you are, then what diesel rolling stock would you suggest run those services?

 

[jones_bangor]

If the WAG want electrification to Holyhead then they can pay for it.

You talk about Holyhead as being the only reason (a good reason, albeit) for having a IC service west of Chester. Conveniently, you forget about the rest of North Wales. Several London services actually terminate at Bangor. These services are well used, needed, and are not going to change. The Holyhead - London route is EXACTLY the type of route Voyagers are best suited to (i.e. some 125mph running). Capacity on XC could be increased by cascade of MK3's and use of 67s / DVT which would be able to increase capacity and more than keep time.

Anyway, your "chip on the shoulder" issues about North Wales have been exposed previously.
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I'm assuming you'd also propose Holyhead/Bangor-Chester/Crewe services with connections to London in place of the through London services. If not, I'm sure ORR would reject any such proposal. If you are, then what diesel rolling stock would you suggest run those services?

He's probably thinking of a 153.

 

[tbtc]

I'm assuming you'd also propose Holyhead/Bangor-Chester/Crewe services with connections to London in place of the through London services. If not, I'm sure ORR would reject any such proposal. If you are, then what diesel rolling stock would you suggest run those services?

You'd need some DMU replacements for paths west of Chester, but the Scottish electrification will release a large number of DMUs which should mean a decent number of 158s heading south. I don't think the line speeds require anything faster (since an ATW 150 often appears to deputise on their Cardiff - Holyhead duties due to stock shortages)
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Capacity on XC could be increased by cascade of MK3's and use of 67s / DVT which would be able to increase capacity and more than keep time

Not enough spare, plus they wouldn't have the acceleration to be able to keep to Voyager times, sorry

 

[The Planner]

And unless you power door them you are knackered on dwells too.

 

[jones_bangor]

You'd need some DMU replacements for paths west of Chester

In your dreams, sorry. That is not going to happen. AS I said before, Holyhead - London is the Voyager route.

Virgin couldn't give up their Voyagers, it seems most of their services going through Crewe are made up of Voyagers!!

Not enough spare, plus they wouldn't have the acceleration to be able to keep to Voyager times, sorry

There will be plenty spare when IEP happens.

 

[Welshman]

I've argued previously for the following services:

Birmingham - Holyhead (05.30 ex Birmingham - 08.23 into Holyhead, as now)

Holyhead (08.55 departure, as now) - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton (via Walsall/Nuneaton *or* Birmingham/Coventry) - London

Plus afternoon/evening return.


If the WAG want electrification to Holyhead then they can pay for it.

I cannot see how 1 through train per day with a time penalty of an hour or so by going via Shrewsbury can be an adequate or acceptable alternative to the present service of 6 trains per day from North Wales direct via Crewe.

As has been said before the last time this proposal was aired, it's not just the Irish market via Holyhead that is being served - there is a growing market in North Wales as well as holiday traffic to the coastal resorts and the student market centred on Bangor University. I see these N.Wales services frequently, and they are often well-loaded.

If the Crewe-Chester electrification does come about, and there's a long way to go between considering the idea and seeing the first 390 tilt around Beeston Castle, then I would hope the pantograph cars will be running in the present Voyager formations to allow N.Wales through services to continue at their present, if not increased, frequency, as I doubt the WAG would be able or willing to sponsor electrification along the coast from Chester.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A build of pantograph cars for the Voyagers is the obvious and easiest solution to a stack of off the west coast missing or underdevloped through services plus some more seats.

 

[Bevan Price]

One thing to be done would be to extend the LM Euston - Northampton - Crewe service to Chester, replacing the Crewe - Chester shuttles. Indeed, this might be feasible without extra stock, as the LM service currently has about a 50 minute layover at Crewe - easily enough for a round trip to Chester & back. .

 

[merlodlliw]

I've argued previously for the following services:

Birmingham - Holyhead (05.30 ex Birmingham - 08.23 into Holyhead, as now)

Holyhead (08.55 departure, as now) - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton (via Walsall/Nuneaton *or* Birmingham/Coventry) - London

Plus afternoon/evening return.

This allows the Voyager to be maintained at Central Rivers by XC alongside all their other Voyagers, it allows the London - Chester service to be an hourly EMU (whether 390 or otherwise), it means Wrexham/ Shrewsbury (and maybe Walsall) all have a daily London service, it means that all Voyagers can go to XC (albeit one a day used on this Holyhead service), it means Virgin use EMUs on Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh too.

If the WAG want electrification to Holyhead then they can pay for it.

This routing via Wrexham was a total failure when the Wrexham bypass was opened and the line singled, The then Clwyd County Council as a sop to Wrexham put on a London service from Chester,which was an extension of a Shrewsbury/London, it took well over 90 minutes longer than the Euston/Chester & DMU to Wrexham, and was soon dumped.
I recall signage at Euston, advising later trains would get to Chester & Wrexham sooner , which they did,I used both services.

Also I recall some Holyheads ran via Birmingham to Euston(via Crewe/Stafford) and took over an hour longer.

On another matter we had a Talk by ATW senior staff last year, none of them saw any chance of wires passed Chester, not sufficient traffic to warrant it.
As for WAG, well its cash strapped.

Bob

 

[northwichcat]

One thing to be done would be to extend the LM Euston - Northampton - Crewe service to Chester, replacing the Crewe - Chester shuttles. Indeed, this might be feasible without extra stock, as the LM service currently has about a 50 minute layover at Crewe - easily enough for a round trip to Chester & back. .

The Chester-Crewe shuttle needs to be half an hour after the Chester-London service in both directions. It's also around 25 minutes in each direction, so it would probably end up sitting around for around an hour in Chester instead of in Crewe.

Plus if the LM plans for serving Preston go ahead then there wouldn't be any LM trains terminating at Crewe which can be extended to Chester.

 

[Holly]

The Chester-Crewe shuttle needs to be half an hour after the Chester-London service in both directions. It's also around 25 minutes in each direction, so it would probably end up sitting around for around an hour in Chester instead of in Crewe. ...

Well, if we are talking about 350/1 units then they don't have to sit in Chester for an hour. They can go third rail and do a trip up to Hooton and back. Where car parking and motorway access are easy.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, if we are talking about 350/1 units then they don't have to sit in Chester for an hour. They can go third rail and do a trip up to Hooton and back. Where car parking and motorway access are easy.

It would only have 9 minutes to get to Hooton from Chester and back, assuming it was run in the current Chester-Crewe path to keep a half-hourly frequency between Crewe and Chester:

Euston 06:24
Crewe a: 09:38
Crewe d: 10:23
Chester a: 10:46
Chester d: 10:55
Crewe a: 11:18
Crewe d: 11:33
Euston: 14:49

 

[merlodlliw]

In my opinion, no one one from Chester wants to spend four hours in a train to Euston.

Forget Hooton & LM to Chester, unless it is written into new contracts,ATW would of course object for the next seven no growth years, as would Merseytravel.

 

[185]

I think what has been missed is the reintroduction of stations enroute. Couple of good sites for P&R along the rampacked A51, the road into Chester and Crewe is chaos in the mornings. This growth could justify more services along the line.

 

[sprinterguy]

In my opinion, no one one from Chester wants to spend four hours in a train to Euston.

No-one would be likely to, as an hourly Chester to London West Coast service would be in place. Extending LMs' Crewe terminating service to Chester simply negates the requirement for ATW to operate just one or two EMUs on the Crewe to Chester shuttle, or for continued running of DMUs on the service following electrification, although it would open up a wider range of journey opportunities from Chester to intermediate destinations on the WCML.
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In your dreams, sorry. That is not going to happen. AS I said before, Holyhead - London is the Voyager route.

Virgin couldn't give up their Voyagers, it seems most of their services going through Crewe are made up of Voyagers!!.

Which shouldn't need to be the case: The Birmingham to Scotland route could benefit from an additional batch of Pendolinos immediately as it is already completely under the wires, and electrifying Crewe to Chester to allow Pendolino operation sounds like a fair trade off for the loss of the direct North Wales services. If passengers want the fastest journey time from Holyhead/Bangor to Euston then they can change at Chester, if they wish to make the journey by a direct train then retaining a few through trains a day (More than a single out and back working though) by a slower route seems satisfactory to me.

There will be plenty spare when IEP happens.

Though there may be a number of HSTs made spare by IEP, at that stage they will be thirty years old and due for replacement really.

 

[northwichcat]

No-one would be likely to, as an hourly Chester to London West Coast service would be in place. Extending LMs' Crewe terminating service to Chester simply negates the requirement for ATW to operate just one or two EMUs on the Crewe to Chester shuttle, or for continued running of DMUs on the service following electrification, although it would open up a wider range of journey opportunities from Chester to intermediate destinations on the WCML

If the LM Preston service goes ahead they won't have any trains terminating at Crewe (except maybe a few early morning/late night services.)

As my earlier post illustrates Euston-Crewe-Chester would involve a 350 sitting around almost as much as without the Chester extension, unless we completely recast Chester-London and Crewe-London services.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think what has been missed is the reintroduction of stations enroute. Couple of good sites for P&R along the rampacked A51, the road into Chester and Crewe is chaos in the mornings. This growth could justify more services along the line.

fully agree the A51 between Chester & Tarvin especially the Vicars Cross roundabout is indeed nose to tail every day, traveled on it last week going to Kelsall, five miles took 30 minutes at 5.50p.m.

However a close 2nd is the Wrexham to Post House interchange,tailbacks the length of the single track every day between 0700 & 0900, growth at the Chester Business park warrants a station.

 

[Super Sprinter]

This may be slightly off topic, but would it be possible to put a new station close to the Industrial Estate in Wrexham? I am sure this would be used frequently, perhaps if located near the bypass extension.

 

[Nym]

Need I mention some of the easy(er) fixes like the M61 and M60, every day, and the M62, every day!

 

[185]

A few years back, a station in Norway was built with concrete blocks one lamp and polystyrene signs for £35,000 as an experiment, to prove a point. It was utterly awful, but paid for itself within weeks. The locals tidied it up, it's actually one of the nicest now. As one of the most expensive places in Europe, makes you wonder how they could do it for less than 1/100th the average UK cost.

 

[cymro inside]

im told that the 0910 euston to holyhead was full and standing from chester this morning and that was 2x5 car units so the demand is there.there is a great deal of traffic between stoke and chester and v.v.but there is no way there will be a euston to chester emu service as it would need to cross the wcml at crewe and the paths just dont exist,virgin are not going to throw away their new first class goldmine at chester to lm.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

im told that the 0910 euston to holyhead was full and standing from chester this morning and that was 2x5 car units so the demand is there.

I can confirm this; I got on this train at Crewe along with around 150 others and there were still standing passengers when I got off at Llandudno Junction. Somewhat to my surprise, relatively few disembarked at Rhyl or LLJ even though the majority of passengers had the look, and the luggage, of holiday makers.

 

[northwichcat]

I can confirm this; I got on this train at Crewe along with around 150 others and there were still standing passengers when I got off at Llandudno Junction. Somewhat to my surprise, relatively few disembarked at Rhyl or LLJ even though the majority of passengers had the look, and the luggage, of holiday makers.

Probably going to Ireland then. Although, the 11:26 Chester-Holyhead (ex-Birmingham) is shown as the train that connects with the boat it goes via Wrexham meaning the 10:49 Crewe-Holyhead (ex-London) is the last journey option for passengers from Crewe going to Ireland.

 

[krus_aragon]

Probably going to Ireland then.

There's a lot of traffic to and from Ireland at the moment. Yesterday's 1730 HHD-CRE was standing room only between Rhyl and Chester, and this was a 5-car 175!

 

[jones_bangor]

and electrifying Crewe to Chester to allow Pendolino operation sounds like a fair trade off for the loss of the direct North Wales services. If passengers want the fastest journey time from Holyhead/Bangor to Euston then they can change at Chester, if they wish to make the journey by a direct train then retaining a few through trains a day (More than a single out and back working though) by a slower route seems satisfactory to me.

Do you think the people of North Wales are stupid, or is it just you? Electrifying Chester to Crewe will save a few minutes at most - the present Voyagers run at 125mph so the time savings you talk about are not there. The North Wales coast line is an INTERNATIONAL line.

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On another matter we had a Talk by ATW senior staff last year, none of them saw any chance of wires passed Chester, not sufficient traffic to warrant it.
As for WAG, well its cash strapped.

I think the whole of the UK is cash strapped, and the cuts haven't even happened yet. God help us all.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Chester-Crewe shuttle needs to be half an hour after the Chester-London service in both directions. It's also around 25 minutes in each direction, so it would probably end up sitting around for around an hour in Chester instead of in Crewe.

Plus if the LM plans for serving Preston go ahead then there wouldn't be any LM trains terminating at Crewe which can be extended to Chester.

A 350 could run Crewe to Chester in 19 or 20 minutes. Even a Class 37 has been known to do Crewe - Chester in under 18 minutes (with liberal interpretation of some speed limits, or so I was told...). Easily enough time for a Crewe - Chester - Crewe round trip in less than 50 minutes. If Chester electrification does ever go ahead, it is likely that there will be consequential changes to the WCML timetable .

 

[Rhydgaled]

Keeping a timetable similar to the current one I can see Pantograph vehicles for Voyagers being the only option, unless Chester-Holyhead is electrified.

With a timetable recast it should be possible to go 50% 5 car Pendolinos and 50% 5 car bi-mode Voyagers, assuming the two would be able to work together in multiple.

North Wales shouldn't loose its London services, but I don't think they are enough to justify wiring and the Holyhead - Birmingham via Wrexham services might be too important to divert to try to justify electrification.

I only see the point of wiring Crewe - Chester if you can casscade ICWC's entire Voyager fleet away, so that leaves one option, get extra Pendos (I like the idea that somebody on here suggested once of buying more new 11-car sets and cascading the existing 9-car sets to the North Wales route) and drag them with 57s. If you wanted to do that with the current services and electrification, I estimate you would need 5 of Virgin's Thunderbird class 57s to drag all the trains from Crewe to Chester/Bangor/Holyhead. I doubt that'd be feesible. Wiring the line should save locos, but my estimate only shows a reduction of one (although 1 only drags one service a day). However, if you completly change the Holyhead/Bangor - Euston timetable to an 2-hourly all day service (rather than hourly peak nothing off-peak, but still retaining one pair of morning services to London an hour apart (04:55 and 05:55)) you cut that to three locos, which I'm guessing the Thunderbird fleet should just about be able to cope with.

Capacity on XC could be increased by cascade of MK3's and use of 67s / DVT

Not enough spare, plus they wouldn't have the acceleration to be able to keep to Voyager times, sorry

Where are these 'not spare' 67s currently operating? How many allocated to (for example) East Coast thunderbird duties and Chiltern after Evergreen3?

There will be plenty spare when IEP happens.

How would IEP free up 67s?

As for WAG, well its cash strapped.

As far as I've been able to work out, it also has no responsiblity for capital investment in rail, and therefore is not given a slice of funding from Westminister for these purposes. For things like the Ebbw Vale re-opening and any electrification WAG would have to divert some funding allocated by Westminister for some other purpose.

 

[merlodlliw]

North Wales shouldn't loose its London services, but I don't think they are enough to justify wiring and the Holyhead - Birmingham via Wrexham services might be too important to divert to try to justify electrification.

I only see the point of wiring Crewe - Chester if you can casscade ICWC's entire Voyager fleet away, so that leaves one option, get extra Pendos (I like the idea that somebody on here suggested once of buying more new 11-car sets and cascading the existing 9-car sets to the North Wales route) and drag them with 57s. If you wanted to do that with the current services and electrification, I estimate you would need 5 of Virgin's Thunderbird class 57s to drag all the trains from Crewe to Chester/Bangor/Holyhead. I doubt that'd be feesible. Wiring the line should save locos, but my estimate only shows a reduction of one (although 1 only drags one service a day). However, if you completly change the Holyhead/Bangor - Euston timetable to an 2-hourly all day service (rather than hourly peak nothing off-peak, but still retaining one pair of morning services to London an hour apart (04:55 and 05:55)) you cut that to three locos, which I'm guessing the Thunderbird fleet should just about be able to cope with.



Where are these 'not spare' 67s currently operating? How many allocated to (for example) East Coast thunderbird duties and Chiltern after Evergreen3?

How would IEP free up 67s?

As far as I've been able to work out, it also has no responsiblity for capital investment in rail, and therefore is not given a slice of funding from Westminister for these purposes. For things like the Ebbw Vale re-opening and any electrification WAG would have to divert some funding allocated by Westminister for some other purpose.

I must learn to highlight small items as you do, anyhow

WAG have the responsibility for doubling the Saltney/Wrexham out of its Capitol budget, around £30Millions set aside from previous years,there is a £12M shortfall, but better spent on this, than roads as well may be the plan when funding changes in the Autumn, IE ring fenced Capitol Budgets,spent elsewhere, no guarantee after Autumn it would be spent on rail,if the Dualing is delayed in the review.

The Ebbw Vale monies call came from Europe, as this was Objective one money, Wrexham was objective three at the time, so the £1M for Wrexham General bays came via WAGs capitol budget & was paid direct to NR for infrastructure, as this was also Europe Money it was fudged, I might add the ruling was for all TOCs to use the bays not just W/S, ATW & VT now use them. But they are becoming very tardy now, but will be useful for dual tracking locos etc.

Bob
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There's a lot of traffic to and from Ireland at the moment. Yesterday's 1730 HHD-CRE was standing room only between Rhyl and Chester, and this was a 5-car 175!

A five car 175, indeed a rare sighting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Probably going to Ireland then. Although, the 11:26 Chester-Holyhead (ex-Birmingham) is shown as the train that connects with the boat it goes via Wrexham meaning the 10:49 Crewe-Holyhead (ex-London) is the last journey option for passengers from Crewe going to Ireland.

Yes but the ex Birminghams are 2 coach DUMs out of Wrexham & Chester, standing room only.