Crewe-London Terminals

[Edward111]

If I bought a Crewe-London Terminals which London stations are valid and were would you change, thanks Ed.

 

[transportphoto]

RG - Valid Maps:

CM+GC
CS
LC

Map CS Allows -

Paddington, travelling via Banbury, Reading & Slough
Marylebone, travelling via Banbury & West Rusl
Clapham Junc, travelling via Reading, Slough, Hayes & Harlington & Kenny O

Map LC allows -

Euston
Clapham Junc, travelling via Willesdon Junc & Kenny O

Map(s) CM+GC allow -

Paddington, travelling via West Ruslip & Greenford
Marylebone, travelling via The Chiltern Mainline

 

[Edward111]

thanks for the info.

 

[generalvegitable]

you could also get a direct train to Euston which I think is valid from crewe

 

[Edward111]

i been on lots of penodo's and i wanted a FGW hst into London Padd

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just a thought; does validity stop at Clapham Jct or can you carry on to Waterloo?

 

[OwlMan]

Clapham Junction is not valid as it is not classed ass on of the LOndon Terminals.

Peter

 

[transportphoto]

Just a thought; does validity stop at Clapham Jct or can you carry on to Waterloo?

Peter, I believe that validity stops when you get to Clapham, as Waterloo isn't on any of the valid maps.

Clapham Junction is not valid as it is not classed ass on of the LOndon Terminals.

Peter

Peter, it is valid as it is on a valid route to London Group, if you can get to London on the same ticket or not, as said by yorkie, being able to complete your journey does not determine validity.

 

[OwlMan]

Peter, it is valid as it is on a valid route to London Group, if you can get to London on the same ticket or not, as said by yorkie, being able to complete your journey does not determine validity.

What valid route to London Group - Clapham junction is not part of London Group and neither of the routes that you quoted are valid as neither map includes a route from Clapham Junction to a London Group station that does not involve doubling back.
On map LC the permitted mapped route ends at Clapham Junction and does not go on to London Group; map CS has connections to Redhill (and thence Ashford and Three Bridges) but no connection from Clapham Junction to London Group.

However you could travel to Clapham using Map CS but not by the route you quoted; you would have to travel from Reading to Redhill via Guidford and then to Clapham Journey (breaking the journey short - the continuation being to Hayes & Harlington & Paddington.)
Peter

 

[Olympian]

Interesting; quick search on The Trainline and it's showing £59.10 Crewe - London Terminals off-peak single as valid today on a journey 1001 Crewe - Wolverhampton - Basingstoke - (Clapham Junction) - Waterloo arr. 1407.

It won't give any tickets via Kensington Olympia to Waterloo though.

 

[transportphoto]

Time I got me maps out again!!!
More to Follow - I'm on it!

Edit - as yorkie said in this thread you do not have to be able to complete your journey - as this does not determine validity.

This is how I determined that CLJ is permitted:

Firstly I looked at the YELLOW Pages (as I know that Crewe and London Grp are routing points):

View attachment Crewe to London (yellow pages).pdf

This shows the permitted routes (the maps) - CM+GC, CS, LC.
So I looked at the maps:

View attachment Crewe to London (cm+gc).pdf

This allows London Marylebone, travelling via the Chiltern Mainline (changing at B'ham) & London Paddington (when services exist) via the Chiltern Mainline.

View attachment 2906

This allows London Marylebone, travelling via the Chiltern Mainline, London Paddington travelling via Reading & Slough & you can get to Clapham Junction via Dorking, Redhill & Croydon this route would be fine for people getting a Travelcard, but you then won't be able to get into London on this ticket.

View attachment Crewe to London (lc).pdf

This allows London Euston.
Also allowing Clapham Junc, travelling via Willesden Junction & Kenny O again fine for Travelcards but not for others.

Hope this helps!

 

[b0b]

Edit - as yorkie said in this thread you do not have to be able to complete your journey - as this does not determine validity.

I missed this discussion, so to clarify, when using a mapped route, you may choose any route on the given map combination even if the route does not go between the origin and destination routing points?

ie. holding a Crewe to London Terminals ticket, you are allowed by LC to use the ticket to Clapham Junction by changing at Willesden Jcn, even though there is no mapped route from Crewe via CJ to London Terminals on map LC?

That doesn't make sense.

 

[transportphoto]

I missed this discussion, so to clarify, when using a mapped route, you may choose any route on the given map combination even if the route does not go between the origin and destination routing points?

ie. holding a Crewe to London Terminals ticket, you are allowed by LC to use the ticket to Clapham Junction by changing at Willesden Jcn, even though there is no mapped route from Crewe via CJ to London Terminals on map LC?

That doesn't make sense.

I know it doesn't - but I am going by what has been said in the past & other people successfully used!

Maybe it is time to call our resident ticketing expert in!

 

[OwlMan]

Time I got me maps out again!!!
More to Follow - I'm on it!

Edit - as yorkie said in this thread you do not have to be able to complete your journey - as this does not determine validity.

This is how I determined that CLJ is permitted:

Firstly I looked at the YELLOW Pages (as I know that Crewe and London Grp are routing points):

View attachment 2904

This shows the permitted routes (the maps) - CM+GC, CS, LC.
So I looked at the maps:

View attachment 2905

This allows London Marylebone, travelling via the Chiltern Mainline (changing at B'ham) & London Paddington (when services exist) via the Chiltern Mainline.

View attachment 2906

This allows London Marylebone, travelling via the Chiltern Mainline, London Paddington travelling via Reading & Slough & you can get to Clapham Junction via Dorking, Redhill & Croydon this route would be fine for people getting a Travelcard, but you then won't be able to get into London on this ticket.

View attachment 2907

This allows London Euston.
Also allowing Clapham Junc, travelling via Willesden Junction & Kenny O again fine for Travelcards but not for others.

Hope this helps!

You have misinterperated what Yorkie said. He said you do not have to be able to complete the journey (no further trains that day etc) but he was refering to mapped routes - not routes that are not mapped.

You can not go to Clapham Junction on a Crewe to London Terminals Ticket unless a mapped route from Crewe to Clapham passes through Clapham Junction.
The only route that applies to is via Reading & Redhill (on the way to Paddington via Olympia & Hayes & Harlington). You can not travel from Olympia to Clapham Junction as none of those routes go to a London Terminal.

Peter
Peter

 

[John @ home]

Edit - as yorkie said in this thread you do not have to be able to complete your journey - as this does not determine validity.

In that thread, transportphoto claimed that a London or Tottenham Hale ticket was not valid via Stansted Airport as from Stansted Air you can't then complete your journey (without doubling back between Audley End and Elsenham) as the first stop on XC is Audley End this renders your ticket invalid via SSD however it is valid only via Mountfitchet.

There are two misapprehensions here. First, nobody was suggesting travel via Audley End. Travel via Stansted Airport is allowed because Stansted Group is, as transportphoto agreed, the appropriate Routeing Point for these journeys. The Routeing Guide allows doubling back between members of a Routeing Point where the Routeing Point is neither the origin nor the destination. See page 6 of the Instructions.

Thus London (or Tottenham Hale) - Stansted Mountfitchet (pass) - Stansted Airport - Stansted Mountfitchet (change) - Elsenham is a permitted route.

A permitted route like this is not restricted by the level of train service. That is what yorkie was explaining when he wrote

We have concluded several times that you do not need to 'complete' your journey, or be able to 'complete' your jouney

Inadvertently, this has led to the second misapprehension. transportphoto has interpreted this to mean that it is not necessary to be able to complete the journey on the map for the route to be permitted. yorkie didn't mean that. He meant that it is not necessary to be able to complete the journey by timetabled trains for the route to be permitted. It is necessary to be able to complete the journey on the map(s).

Perhaps an example would help. Let's take a London - Inverness ticket of a type valid for break of journey. The Permitted Route Identifier states that map AS shows permitted routes. Map AS shows that travel via Blackburn and Hellifield is permitted.

But, for more than 350 days a year, there are no passenger trains between Clitheroe (a station north-east of Blackburn) and Hellifield. That doesn't prevent a passenger using a London - Inverness ticket as a London - Clitheroe ticket. They don't need to wait for one of the few summer Sundays when trains run. But they can only do this because Clitheroe is on a permitted route between London and Inverness.

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry all for my mishap!

 

[clagmonster]

John, I quite agree. Just to clarify the point, the routeing guide instruction state:
"If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).
Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g)
ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via
any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the
final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final
routeing point is reached."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 5

As it is not possible to reach the London group via Kenny O and Clapham Jn on map LC, such a ticket would not be valid via this route.