Crewe-Chester electrification

[Gareth]

Yeah, the 'City Line' is a weird curiosity. It's basically the Northern Rail commuter services out of Lime Street, including the fast Blackpool North Route. Really, Merseytravel should just mark it as such and perhaps give a slightly different line rendering; maybe more like the double thin line that the London Overground has.

Crewe doesn't have such services, so isn't marked as such (although that never stopped Merseytravel considering Central Trains to Birmingham New Street as a 'City Line' service, a few years ago). Ideally, I'd like to see an extra 'City Line' service to Crewe from Lime Street calling all stations via Runcorn. This could coincide with reopening stations like Wavertree, Ditton etc.

 

[daikilo]

Says in june 2011 of modern railways that the dft is expected to announce electrification of crewe, and give WCML bidders chance to come up with stratergies to replace voyagers.

Not seen MR but I guess you meant electrifcation of Crewe-Chester at 25kV overhead.

That would logically mean that traction would change at Chester rather than Crewe which would ease platform occupancy at Crewe but would add further complication at Chester.

Currently, trains exiting Chester to the west are mainly either 650V DC to Liverpool or diesel to Wrexham/beyond and the North-Wales coast. They originate as starters or from various points including a few from Crewe. Even those from Crewe start from further afield as diesels and will likely remain that mode.

Personally, I doubt that 25kV overhead on Crewe-Chester will bring a significant passenger-flow mode-change but could incite operators with London connections to operate electric to Chester then terminate. Choice of operator on e.g. the North-Wales coast could then become an issue.

 

[Nym]

If it's accompanied with a continuation of the order of 390s and some better locomotives to pull them, yes, it's a step change. London - Chester and Crewe - Chester would be changed to Electric operation, beit with Merseyrail, Northern, London Midland, or ATW.

Changeover at Chester would be better than Crewe, and any continuation of electrification would be as 25KV AC. If Merseyrail order DV stock they could operate it through the loop, 2tph from Crewe to Chester.

It would result in a standardisation of all LDPE stock out of Euston, if it where ordered as part of the project. It would also result in more Diesel stock for either TPE, XC or any other operator, alternativly, convert the 221s to Electrodiesel operation and use them for remaining off wire services.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In that scenario does Merseyrail get to pay Virgin for use of the knitting if Merseyrail extends its Chester service to Crewe?

This would, of course, require Merseyrail's proposed new fleet ( or at least part of it ) top be dual voltage wouldn't it?

However, I think such an extension of the Merseyrail Chester service to Crewe would be very nice as it would open up a number of new through journey opportunities and avoid the need for a dedicated shuttle diagram.

Whether or not it happens, I would also suggest that the old Beeston Castle station at Tarporley should be re-opened; it is exactly half way between Crwwe and Chester and in a prime tourist area with quite a reasonable level of demand ( several taxi drivers at either location have told me their biggest single earner is taking people to and from the Wild Boar Hotel ).

 

[tbtc]

Yes, acquiring dual voltage rolling stock would give Merseyrail the potential to operate out of Lime Street mainline. And electrification of Crewe to Chester gives them an operational means to get here from there

As I understand it, any new Third Rail EMUs are going to be dual voltage (capable) ones (I'm not sure what the last Third Rail EMUs were which weren't easily capable of running with pantographs? (e.g. a 450 can easily become a 350)

So, with a little electrification, the next Merseyrail franchise could include:

Liverpool - Birkenhead - Chester - Crewe
Liverpool - Kirby - Wigan
Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston

(etc)

 

[ainsworth74]

(I'm not sure what the last Third Rail EMUs were which weren't easily capable of running with pantographs?

Perhaps the 3rd rail Networkers? They share a body shell but I was under the impression that the equipment fitted to DC versions is not very similar to that fitted to the AC versions.

 

[Holly]

So, with a little electrification, the next Merseyrail franchise could include:
Liverpool - Birkenhead - Chester - Crewe
Liverpool - Kirby - Wigan
Liverpool - Ormskirk - Preston
(etc)

With the support of, and at the pleasure of HMG that is of course.
Is Merseyrail a favoured son in Downing Street? There is reason to think they just may be.

It would have to include Crewe - Hartford - Liverpool to make real sense.

 

[daikilo]

Perhaps the 3rd rail Networkers? They share a body shell but I was under the impression that the equipment fitted to DC versions is not very similar to that fitted to the AC versions.

Guys, some of you are in a timewarp. Merseyrail only got to Chester because it made financial and political sense. There is no way they will go after any ex-Chester markets and even less with multi-mode.

 

[OxtedL]

Very true....

I don't think the 460s (8Gats/Vaders) are AC capable, otherwise they might not be headed for storage...

 

[ainsworth74]

Guys, some of you are in a timewarp. Merseyrail only got to Chester because it made financial and political sense. There is no way they will go after any ex-Chester markets and even less with multi-mode.

What's my post got to do with Merseyrail? I'm simply thinking about tbtc's point about which unit was the last to be built without easily being convertible to dual mode running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think the 460s (8Gats/Vaders) are AC capable, otherwise they might not be headed for storage...

Yeah I was thinking that they might be the last as well.

 

[tbtc]

I think the 460s are the only units since the Networkers, yeah, that sounds about right.

So any new Merseyrail EMUs will automatically be build dual voltage - given the lifespan of vehicles it'd be daft not to (may even be cheaper to, since you could use an existing design of class).

A direct service from the Wirral Peninsula to Crewe will open up new markets and avoid a the need to travel into central Liverpool/ change there.

 

[daikilo]

What's my post got to do with Merseyrail? I'm simply thinking about tbtc's point about which unit was the last to be built without easily being convertible to dual mode running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was focussing on the thread titile.

That said, you have moved to a very interesting topic, which I suggest should be a new thread. I do not think it is currently relevant to Merseyrail.

 

[OxtedL]

Well, since we're not moving too far away... How big is too big for Merseyrail? Preston, Wigan, Wrexham and now Crewe , when does it become un-manageable...?

 

[daikilo]

Well, since we're not moving too far away... How big is too big for Merseyrail? Preston, Wigan, Wrexham and now Crewe , when does it become un-manageable...?

When the mersey is too far away?

That said, the economic equation for 750V third rail may move a few current boundaries, as some of yr points suggest, if they bring an economic case to to Merseyrail.

 

[YorkshireBear]

What's my post got to do with Merseyrail? I'm simply thinking about tbtc's point about which unit was the last to be built without easily being convertible to dual mode running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was focussing on the thread titile.

That said, you have moved to a very interesting topic, which I suggest should be a new thread. I do not think it is currently relevant to Merseyrail.

the thread wasnt about merseyrail in any way, it was about electrification from crewe to chester. Distractions is what forums are about

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thread wasnt about Merseyrail in any way, it was about electrification from Crewe to Chester. Distractions are what forums are about

How very true. Off-thread syndrome has struck again .:roll:


To return to the subject at hand, it was stated that ATW were looking at a route to Manchester Airport. One route, that the proposed Crewe to Chester electrification would assist in this matter would be:-

Manchester Airport - Wilmslow - Crewe - Chester.

 

[tbtc]

When the mersey is too far away?

In which case they should be running to Stockport

 

[Nym]

To return to the subject at hand, it was stated that ATW were looking at a route to Manchester Airport. One route, that the proposed Crewe to Chester electrification would assist in this matter would be:-

Manchester Airport - Wilmslow - Crewe - Chester.

I do hate to (actually I don't) point out that that would be another service crossing all tracks at Crewe and would eat paths...

 

[Invincibles]

How hard is it to put platform(s) on the freight line so allowing it to function as a flying junction and remove a lot of the crossing at Crewe?

 

[Nym]

The're underground and have no space next to them on the independant lines, so I'd guess quiite hard, not to mention the fact that it's a crossing and reversal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I do hate to (actually I don't) point out that that would be another service crossing all tracks at Crewe and would eat paths...

So I take it that ATW would just extend their Llandudno to Manchester Piccadilly services to Manchester Airport, on the selected services they wish this to happen upon? I know it is only aspirational on ATW thinking at present.

 

[Nym]

yep, it makes operational sense too if they want to continue serving piccadilly. Even though its faster to change at crewe...

 

[pablo]

Merseyrail comes into it because, if the new WCML franchisee pays for Crewe-Chester electrification, Merseyrail falls naturally into replacing ATW. The Crewe-Chester shuttle has never fallen comfortably with ATW. For long enough they didn't have the right stock. Cattle trucks come to mind.
The two services don't join up; they actually match perfectly. I used to have to wait half an hour at Chester for a northward connection; since they went 4tph it's only quarter of an hour thank ...... They arrive and depart simultaneously but 6 platforms apart. Cries out for joined up thinking and perhaps, perhaps, electrification will do it for them. 1½ hours from arriving at Crewe to reaching Hooton, all of 28 miles, was a complete joke.

 

[Invincibles]

The're underground and have no space next to them on the independant lines, so I'd guess quiite hard, not to mention the fact that it's a crossing and reversal.

For some reason I thought they came back up behind Crewe station, or at least out into the open.

It is a few years since I have been to Gresty Road or down the Marches from Manchester to really have a look.

I do not think they are that busy that reversal and crossing would be a problem, especially as any Chester - Manchester train would need to reverse in the main station anyway.

Via Warrington remains the best route from Chester to the airport as others have mentioned.

I was just curious about the avoiding lines because they could also fit the Manchester - Cardiff through there and stop that crossing paths*

*if there was a chord and the things were near enough to the surface to make construction sensible.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the remodelling works with the trackwork at Crewe station were carried out, were there any previously available paths deleted as a result of this work.

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern are reactivating an empty depot in Merseyside thats already wired (former stabling ground of 390's), would that be suitable home for an electric Chester-Crewe service?

Also slightly offtopic I just saw a newsflash that NR is shopping around a £1bn Pfi contract to wire Edinburgh-Glasgow, has this country suddenly gone electrification mad?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

When the remodelling works with the trackwork at Crewe station were carried out, were there any previously available paths deleted as a result of this work.

Before the remodelling a train from Chester could reach the entire layout, but now it can't reach the eastern island. Also you can't get from P9-12 to the Manchester line any more.
This was because they extended P6 northwards and reduced the connections. Thus the only way to run Chester-Manchester is to reverse in P6.
(for a brief period under North Western when there was a through Chester-Manchester Airport train, even the link from Chester into P6 was out of use so the train used P11 and then had to shunt out towards Gresty Lane to reverse!)

I think the southern end kept its connections.
Only the current P12 is left of the western island.
The "Chester Independent" linking the goods lines to the Chester line (runs behind the station, avoiding the the tunnel) was also singled and is now little used.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Before the remodelling a train from Chester could reach the entire layout, but now it can't reach the eastern island. Also you can't get from P9-12 to the Manchester line any more.
This was because they extended P6 northwards and reduced the connections. Thus the only way to run Chester-Manchester is to reverse in P6.

The trouble is, when you get to my age, the old memories still stay with you as if it was only yesterday. Out of the window goes my grand plan for a Chester to Manchester Airport service avoiding Manchester. :roll:

Still, thank you for clarifying what I had overlooked.

 

[lancastrian]

The trouble is, when you get to my age, the old memories still stay with you as if it was only yesterday. Out of the window goes my grand plan for a Chester to Manchester Airport service avoiding Manchester. :roll:

Still, thank you for clarifying what I had overlooked.

It is still possible, all you need to do is make Manchester Airport Station a through station and link it to the Stcokport to Altrincham line, and there you have it, Manchster Airport to Chester, without going through Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is still possible, all you need to do is make Manchester Airport station a through station and link it to the Stockport to Altrincham line, and there you have it, Manchester Airport to Chester, without going through Manchester.

I did raise this matter on another thread some time ago, as in the 1980's, there were mentions of this route being examined, but as nothing came to pass, I made an assumption that the matter had been dropped. However, this was said not to be the case, but I cannot recall the actual reason that was given.

I would be obliged if someone on the forum would be so kind as to provide the answer to that final point.