Crewe-Chester electrification

[OxtedL]

Yes, Chester-Crewe is (perhaps unfortunately) right on the boundaries...

I can fully see some kind of stock/crew agreement between different TOCs though, as with North Downs and Tonbridge routes out of Redhill (which I found out about here...)

 

[bluenoxid]

This area is very au faix with this kind of thing. The 175's and the Tripartite agreement and Northern/Scotrail stick in my mind. Freighliner drive 185's above Carlisle. It is just a matter of hammering the deal out and ensuring that best value is gained.

 

[tbtc]

I guess one of the problems is that, if WAG don't want to spend the money on electrifying the North Wales coast then what services replace the Virgins to Holyhead?

Or, if they do pay the cost of electrification then how do they recast the services? Cap the Cardiff/ Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Holyhead services at Chester (to avoid DMUs running long distances under the wires) and replace them with EMUs from London/ Crewe - Holyhead?

Would be nice if the new Merseyrail EMUs are dual voltage to allow services to run through to Crewe/ WCML (presumably any new third rail DMUs will be built with dual voltage capabilities as standard?)...

 

[OxtedL]

Going 100% off topic for a second here, how similar are 313s to 507/8s?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd be surprised if the DfT just came out with a commitment to electrify Crewe-Chester in advance of the WCML bids. Much more likely they will leave it to the bidders to include it (and the cost) in their bids, as it will have to be linked to new/converted rolling stock anyway.

According to Rail 671, that's exactly what they are doing - the WCML bidders are able to include proposals to electrify to Chester, but they aren't required to - it's a purely optional thing to get the little grey cells working...

 

[tbtc]

According to Rail 671, that's exactly what they are doing - the WCML bidders are able to include proposals to electrify to Chester, but they aren't required to - it's a purely optional thing to get the little grey cells working...

WHAT?

Private companies allowed to suggest improvements in infrastructure? And not have the DFT specify every minor detail?

What next? Innovation? TOCs being allowed to invest in longer trains (without DFT permission)? Are other suggestions allowed too (e.g. electrification from Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury or from Nuneaton to Coventry)?

I think I need a lie down

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes.

And please don't faint but there also in the same issue a quote from the DfT that it considers the railway managers as the best people to decide on timetabling issues as well...

 

[tbtc]

Yes.

And please don't faint but there also in the same issue a quote from the DfT that it considers the railway managers as the best people to decide on timetabling issues as well...

::heart attack::

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I guess one of the problems is that, if WAG don't want to spend the money on electrifying the North Wales coast then what services replace the Virgins to Holyhead?

Or, if they do pay the cost of electrification then how do they recast the services? Cap the Cardiff/ Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Wrexham - Chester - Holyhead services at Chester (to avoid DMUs running long distances under the wires) and replace them with EMUs from London/ Crewe - Holyhead?

Would be nice if the new Merseyrail EMUs are dual voltage to allow services to run through to Crewe/ WCML (presumably any new third rail DMUs will be built with dual voltage capabilities as standard?)...

Fishguard and Holyhead are the two main ferry terminals in Wales. Fishguard is quite a distance from the main administrative area of the WAG and there have been proposals for better rail links for the ferry to Rosslare. Holyhead is a major ferry terminal, but unlike Fishguard, it has a rail catchment area of much of the north of England.

I have not seen the June 2011 edition of Modern Railways yet as W H Smith in Wilmslow are still stocking the May 2011 issue, but I hope to read this article soon. Is there not EU finance available to fund transport links to ferry terminals from one country in the EU to another, in this case from Britain to Eire? If so, this would give a case for electrification to Holyhead, giving a fast link via Chester and Crewe to many areas of England. The problem seems to be that much finance was spent on upgrading the A55, with the tunnel under the river at Conway being a high-cost item, with road traffic being in mind.

 

[pablo]

McNulty getting through....?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

McNulty getting through....?

No, I have held my ideas about the two Welsh ferry terminals for very many years , as people who know me will bear out.

You do not need to fully digest the McNulty proposals to have a common sense attitude to problems with obvious solutions.

 

[Gareth]

Don't at all like ideas of long distance services on the Merseyrail underground. It's essentially a metro/commuter system that benefits from relative operational isolation. I could entertain some ideas on some of the overground routes though, if it's not too detrimental to the standard metro services. I mean, the London Underground has some shared sections with other rail services, despite being mostly separate.

The one I was thinking was perhaps Chester - Birkenhead Cenral, stopping at Hooton. Indeed, perhaps Merseyrail could terminate at Hooton and longer distance trains do Chester-Bache-Capenhurst-Birkenhead Central. Chester's direct Liverpool service could then be via the Halton Curve.

 

[tbtc]

Fishguard and Holyhead are the two main ferry terminals in Wales. Fishguard is quite a distance from the main administrative area of the WAG and there have been proposals for better rail links for the ferry to Rosslare. Holyhead is a major ferry terminal, but unlike Fishguard, it has a rail catchment area of much of the north of England.

I have not seen the June 2011 edition of Modern Railways yet as W H Smith in Wilmslow are still stocking the May 2011 issue, but I hope to read this article soon. Is there not EU finance available to fund transport links to ferry terminals from one country in the EU to another, in this case from Britain to Eire? If so, this would give a case for electrification to Holyhead, giving a fast link via Chester and Crewe to many areas of England. The problem seems to be that much finance was spent on upgrading the A55, with the tunnel under the river at Conway being a high-cost item, with road traffic being in mind.

If the line from Chester to Holyhead were to be electrified, then what service would you run on it? Manchester - Llandudno would stay the same (with EMUs replacing DMUs), but what about the two bi-hourly Holyhead routes?

• Holyhead - Llandudno Junction - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Birmingham International
  
• Holyhead - Llandudno Junction - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff

The benefits of electrification seem wasted if you are going to have half the units on the line west of Chester run by DMUs still. Terminate them both at Chester and replace with a Holyhead - Chester - Crewe - London service? But then you'd lose the "political" WAG Express...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the line from Chester to Holyhead were to be electrified, then what service would you run on it?

What about a London- Birmingham-Crewe-Chester-Holyhead electric service. This was one of the most obvious services to spring to mind, with full electrification of the route, so I did not feel that I had the need to mention it.

 

[merlodlliw]

The Kidsgrove to Crewe was wired,

Man Pic/Crewe/Chester Northern, why not,


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about a London- Birmingham-Crewe-Chester-Holyhead electric service. This was one of the most obvious services to spring to mind, with full electrification of the route, so I did not feel that I had the need to mention it.

I dont see Holyhead under the wires, not enough traffic & no freight in my opinion,

Bob

 

[OxtedL]

If the line from Chester to Holyhead were to be electrified, then what service would you run on it? Manchester - Llandudno would stay the same (with EMUs replacing DMUs), but what about the two bi-hourly Holyhead routes?

• Holyhead - Llandudno Junction - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton - Birmingham - Birmingham International
  
• Holyhead - Llandudno Junction - Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff

The benefits of electrification seem wasted if you are going to have half the units on the line west of Chester run by DMUs still. Terminate them both at Chester and replace with a Holyhead - Chester - Crewe - London service? But then you'd lose the "political" WAG Express...

A think a teeny bit of running under the wires would be fine, so the WAGs would almost certainly continue as is. Maintaining some kind of service to Cardiff whatever happens.

IF they wired to Holyhead, I would hope that by that point they would have already done Wolves-Shrews. So throw in the extra via Wrexham, and you have your Birmingham International.

If however, Labour WAG woke up tomorrow and said "I know, lets electrify Chester to Holyhead (with DfT finishing to Crewe)", then I expect that diverting the normal bi-hourly services to Crewe would be the best move.

Any kind of electrification in Wales would be like this (apart from the Valleys), which probably explains why none has been done yet. Once they start, there is massive incentive to do as much as possible.

It obviously won't happen for a while (I would say 20 years at the least - BHM to Newport will probably go first), but it will eventually be very interesting to see what happens...

 

[tbtc]

A think a teeny bit of running under the wires would be fine, so the WAGs would almost certainly continue as is. Maintaining some kind of service to Cardiff whatever happens.

IF they wired to Holyhead, I would hope that by that point they would have already done Wolves-Shrews. So throw in the extra via Wrexham, and you have your Birmingham International.

If however, Labour WAG woke up tomorrow and said "I know, lets electrify Chester to Holyhead (with DfT finishing to Crewe)", then I expect that diverting the normal bi-hourly services to Crewe would be the best move.

Any kind of electrification in Wales would be like this (apart from the Valleys), which probably explains why none has been done yet. Once they start, there is massive incentive to do as much as possible.

It obviously won't happen for a while (I would say 20 years at the least - BHM to Newport will probably go first), but it will eventually be very interesting to see what happens...

I agree with you there.

I'd hope that any line where a half hourly service could be converted from DMU to EMU would be a good candidate for electrification (some lines are more frequent than that, but wouldn't "save" all DMUs and you'd still get running under the wires)...

...so if Wolves - Shrewsbury is next step then this improves the business case for the whole Manchester/ Chester - Shrewsbury - Newport - Cardiff line being done (since Manchester - Crewe is wired already, Newport to Cardiff will be done in a few years etc)...

...and suddenly you have a virtuous circle where every new bit of electrification improves the case for the next bit

 

[pablo]

Originally Posted by pablo McNulty getting through....?

I was refering to posts #35 to 38, not 39. Dont know how to cut and paste previous posts yet.

 

[OxtedL]

...and suddenly you have a virtuous circle where every new bit of electrification improves the case for the next bit

Ah, if only everyone saw it this way! Alas...

One hopes that the GWML electrification is the scheme that gets the ball rolling now, then...

To Aberystwyth by 2040!!

 

[Holly]

Let's suppose this rumour is more than mere rumour (risky, I know).
Let's suppose that (for example) Virgin wins the bid for the new WCML franchise and the bid includes Virgin paying for Crewe-Chester electrification.

In that scenario does Merseyrail get to pay Virgin for use of the knitting if Merseyrail extends its Chester service to Crewe?


Somehow I have a feeling that Merseyrail had a hand in this behind the scenes even though they won't be bearing the lion's share of the costs.

Whichever way you slice it the outcome looks good for Crewe.

 

[OxtedL]

Hmmm... why would Merseyrail extend to Crewe?

But I agree, if electrification occurs, Crewe will very likely be seeing more trains in the Chester direction...

 

[Holly]

Hmmm... why would Merseyrail extend to Crewe ...

Well, as I understand it, Merseytravel already serves Crewe.

So Merseytravel could (?) take Crewe from Northern and give it to Merseyrail.

If, of course, Merseyrail had the dual voltage rolling stock and could deliver service.

My impression (I could easily be wrong) is that Merseytravel is less pleased with Northern than it is with Merseyrail.

 

[bluenoxid]

Huh, Merseytravel serves Crewe?

 

[OxtedL]

Huh, Merseytravel serves Crewe?

My thoughts almost to the syllable. I would have gone with hmmm rather than huh, but anyway...

Can you elaborate on this? Certainly Merseytravel favour Merseyrail (it's their baby after all), but I was unaware that their influence extended this far...?

I don't believe Northern serve Crewe to Chester, I think that is Arriva Trains Wales, but again, this is a long way from home for me...

 

[Holly]

... Can you elaborate on this? Certainly Merseytravel favour Merseyrail (it's their baby after all), but I was unaware that their influence extended this far...? ...

Mea culpa. Sorry, my misinterpretation, it appears (upon googling) that Merseytravel sponsors other (non-Merseyrail) rail services in the county. In particular the existing service Liverpool to Crewe service (via Runcorn) that is marketed as "Merseytravel City Line", but operated by Northern.

I suppose they could withdraw their sponsorship (whatever that means) if Merseyrail were able and willing to take over Crewe-Liverpool service. In order to seek to extend the franchise they have powers to grant.

 

[Nym]

It's operated by London Midland via Runcorn

If I'm thinking right, Northern doesn't run anything through Runcorn.

yes I know they run a service TO runcorn...

 

[pablo]

I've been suggesting the potential to Merseyrail for a few years on and off. Always deny it but they can read the RUSs just like me.

 

[Holly]

I've been suggesting the potential to Merseyrail for a few years on and off. Always deny it but they can read the RUSs just like me.

Yes, acquiring dual voltage rolling stock would give Merseyrail the potential to operate out of Lime Street mainline. And electrification of Crewe to Chester gives them an operational means to get here from there.

All they have to do is propose reopening a long-ago closed Liverpool suburban station (for example Wavertree) and there is your justification for a change.

 

[ukrob]

Mea culpa. Sorry, my misinterpretation, it appears (upon googling) that Merseytravel sponsors other (non-Merseyrail) rail services in the county. In particular the existing service Liverpool to Crewe service (via Runcorn) that is marketed as "Merseytravel City Line", but operated by Northern.

I suppose they could withdraw their sponsorship (whatever that means) if Merseyrail were able and willing to take over Crewe-Liverpool service. In order to seek to extend the franchise they have powers to grant.

It isn't operated by Northern, nor is it sponsored by Merseytravel.

It is included in the 'City Line' Merseytravel timetables as a hangover from a bygone age . There is no such thing as the City Line in reality, it is just a made up line name for some services running out of Lime Street.

 

[OxtedL]

Easy mistake to make though. The goings on around Liverpool are odd, and rarely do they break the surface of that great ocean, public scrutiny...

Woah, I've been on the poetry again...