Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[Mag_seven]

Reading the various comments in the press from the pro-mask faction, its generally surprising how much belief they have in them. Particularly given:

- They were only ever a precautionary measure at controlling transmission, given the shakey evidence for their effectiveness (at least the way the public wears them) and
- Even without vaccines they were always a long way down the food chain in terms of control measures (behind self isolation etc)

They have undoubtedly become a placebo for many people.

It's a classic example of "being seen to be doing something" regardless of whether the "something" under question is effective or not.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a classic example of "being seen to be doing something" regardless of whether the "something" under question is effective or not.

Indeed. It seems to have convinced a good proportion of the population though.

 

[Mag_seven]

Indeed. It seems to have convinced a good proportion of the population though.

Which is why I worry about the critical thinking abilities of the population as a whole.

 

[yorksrob]

Which is why I worry about the critical thinking abilities of the population as a whole.

This whole episode seems to have shown up a weak spot there I think

 

[birchesgreen]

Well glad to see plenty of genii here to put us unthinking scum on the right path.

 

[DelayRepay]

It's a classic example of "being seen to be doing something" regardless of whether the "something" under question is effective or not.

The ongoing obsession with hand sanitizing is the same. It's been proven that surface transmission is not significant, but we still see shops and other places 'encouraging' hand sanitizing on entry. The same applies to the obsession some places have to disinfecting surfaces - I was in a cafe where I was asked to wait so they could sanitize the chair after the previous occupant. I very much doubt I would catch covid from sitting on the same chair.

Yes the thing that's been proven to have the most benefit - ventilation - seems to be largely neglected. I guess because plonking a bottle of sanitizer by the door is easy, but improving ventilation in a building with no opening windows is less easy.

 

[Bantamzen]

Reading the various comments in the press from the pro-mask faction, its generally surprising how much belief they have in them. Particularly given:

- They were only ever a precautionary measure at controlling transmission, given the shakey evidence for their effectiveness (at least the way the public wears them) and
- Even without vaccines they were always a long way down the food chain in terms of control measures (behind self isolation etc)

They have undoubtedly become a placebo for many people.

When you start to read some of the studies trying to prove how effective masks may be in non-clinical settings, a theme starts to emerge. Whilst there is practically no scientific evidence that demonstrates effectiveness in public settings, there are often references to them helping with behavioural characteristics. Or in other words, masks act as a reminder to the proles that there are restrictions in place & to behave themselves.

Of course the government when starting to mandate them they used the "to make people feel safe" approach to water down the "behave yourselves" facet, but as we found out later from SAGE & Co, controlling the population was a key strategy so masks were a useful tool to this end. It would also explain the explosion of social media outrage on the July 19th proposals, particularly from the aforementioned experts. After all they are to lose the biggest public reminder of restrictions.

The ongoing obsession with hand sanitizing is the same. It's been proven that surface transmission is not significant, but we still see shops and other places 'encouraging' hand sanitizing on entry. The same applies to the obsession some places have to disinfecting surfaces - I was in a cafe where I was asked to wait so they could sanitize the chair after the previous occupant. I very much doubt I would catch covid from sitting on the same chair.

Yes the thing that's been proven to have the most benefit - ventilation - seems to be largely neglected. I guess because plonking a bottle of sanitizer by the door is easy, but improving ventilation in a building with no opening windows is less easy.

Its not without irony that some have noted that many of the #covidsafe measures such as plastic screens could be contributing to restricting airflows more than previously, even where ventilation is in place. So like many of the random measures taken to "beat the virus", it may have actually contributed to the problem instead of helping. Once this is all over, its not just the government that will need to be questioned.

 

[DerekC]

Which is why I worry about the critical thinking abilities of the population as a whole

This whole episode seems to have shown up a weak spot there I think

What worries me isn't the critical thinking of the population - it's the obsessive positions that both sides in the mask debate show. The evidence is clear that it helps a bit and being asked to wear a mask in some circumstances doesn't infringe my civil liberties or undermine our democracy so I will do it - and if others don't want to, well I am relaxed about it in the same way that I don't get a fit of road rage if someone carves me up on a roundabout. I just give them lots of space!

 

[yorksrob]

Well glad to see plenty of genii here to put us unthinking scum on the right path.

Perhaps most of those people are equally up in arms about not having to self isolate after vaccination, being allowed to have their friends stay over, little Johnny not having to isolate at school etc, in which case I withdraw my observation. I suspect not in most cases though.

The ongoing obsession with hand sanitizing is the same. It's been proven that surface transmission is not significant, but we still see shops and other places 'encouraging' hand sanitizing on entry. The same applies to the obsession some places have to disinfecting surfaces - I was in a cafe where I was asked to wait so they could sanitize the chair after the previous occupant. I very much doubt I would catch covid from sitting on the same chair.

Yes the thing that's been proven to have the most benefit - ventilation - seems to be largely neglected. I guess because plonking a bottle of sanitizer by the door is easy, but improving ventilation in a building with no opening windows is less easy.

Ventilation is a tricky one particularly in winter, given that the places where we will most want to be are by their nature, cosy.

That is one area where public transport tends to have a head start though.

When you start to read some of the studies trying to prove how effective masks may be in non-clinical settings, a theme starts to emerge. Whilst there is practically no scientific evidence that demonstrates effectiveness in public settings, there are often references to them helping with behavioural characteristics. Or in other words, masks act as a reminder to the proles that there are restrictions in place & to behave themselves.

Of course the government when starting to mandate them they used the "to make people feel safe" approach to water down the "behave yourselves" facet, but as we found out later from SAGE & Co, controlling the population was a key strategy so masks were a useful tool to this end. It would also explain the explosion of social media outrage on the July 19th proposals, particularly from the aforementioned experts. After all they are to lose the biggest public reminder of restrictions.


Its not without irony that some have noted that many of the #covidsafe measures such as plastic screens could be contributing to restricting airflows more than previously, even where ventilation is in place. So like many of the random measures taken to "beat the virus", it may have actually contributed to the problem instead of helping. Once this is all over, its not just the government that will need to be questioned.

A very interesting perspective on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2021 ==

What worries me isn't the critical thinking of the population - it's the obsessive positions that both sides in the mask debate show. The evidence is clear that it helps a bit and being asked to wear a mask in some circumstances doesn't infringe my civil liberties or undermine our democracy so I will do it - and if others don't want to, well I am relaxed about it in the same way that I don't get a fit of road rage if someone carves me up on a roundabout. I just give them lots of space!

And to an extent you have a point, but have these people never been on a long train journey ?

 

[Domh245]

I doubt you will have to eat your hat but I wish they would get on with it and issue the advice. I have been looking after the Covid precautions in our local village hall and we (the Trustees) need to know what the advice is and what responsibilities to our hirers we are taking on when deciding on policies after 19th July.

Can't disagree with you there! Throughout the pandemic, the lack of timely advice for people responsible for implementing "covid-secure" policies who don't have any background in virology, biology, or anything else even vaguely relevant, has been one of the major shortcomings of the government, and IMO responsible for most of the ridiculous restrictions we saw early on. My mum is in a similar boat (part of the team that's figuring out how to deal with covid and make the workplace covid secure) for the university she works for and, bless her, she hasn't a clue what to do.

When you start to read some of the studies trying to prove how effective masks may be in non-clinical settings, a theme starts to emerge. Whilst there is practically no scientific evidence that demonstrates effectiveness in public settings, there are often references to them helping with behavioural characteristics. Or in other words, masks act as a reminder to the proles that there are restrictions in place & to behave themselves.

It's especially odd, as one of the prominent reasons against introducing masks was that they'd encourage a false sense of security and stop people from maintaining distances as much!

 

[37424]

Given that you will have a FFP3 mask, you need not be concerned about your visits to medical establishments either way.

Except of course FFP3 masks are very expensive and there are issues of supply for these masks. There are at least 1.5 million in the extremely vulnerable group do think they will all be able to get FFP3 masks?

As for Medical Environments they will be attended by many extremely vulnerable people and as such I would expect them to retain covid precautions.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's especially odd, as one of the prominent reasons against introducing masks was that they'd encourage a false sense of security and stop people from maintaining distances as much!

It was certainly the position of the WHO at the start was that mandating masks in public might do exactly that. Then some time after some countries went the masks in public route, they changed advice without ever presenting any new evidence despite them saying "based on new evidence". Some of us wondered if this was actually the result of pressure from those governments already long down the mask road.

We'll probably never really know for sure, but in the subsequent year nothing much new in the way of evidence has been presented. And to be fair I don't expect there will ever be, after all trying to create a fully randomised study with the variety of publicly used masks, and ways used by people is going to be near impossible. Which its why it irks me when people talk about "following the science" on masks, when there practically isn't any.

 

[AlterEgo]

The ongoing obsession with hand sanitizing is the same. It's been proven that surface transmission is not significant, but we still see shops and other places 'encouraging' hand sanitizing on entry. The same applies to the obsession some places have to disinfecting surfaces - I was in a cafe where I was asked to wait so they could sanitize the chair after the previous occupant. I very much doubt I would catch covid from sitting on the same chair.

Yes the thing that's been proven to have the most benefit - ventilation - seems to be largely neglected. I guess because plonking a bottle of sanitizer by the door is easy, but improving ventilation in a building with no opening windows is less easy.

Shortly after it reopened, the Avanti first class lounge at Euston was waiting for people to leave their seats to leave and then spraying the seat with some sort of disinfectant, as if COVID lived on the bottoms of their patrons. Elsewhere, on some train companies, and I've seen this on LNER most recently, they've been going around mid-journey spraying...the unused tables...in first class. Unused ones! Pssh pssh and the virus is gone, all safe.

Ventilation is the key, as is not being crowded next to strangers.

 

[43066]

Except of course FFP3 masks are very expensive and there are issues of supply for these masks. There are at least 1.5 million in the extremely vulnerable group do think they will all be able to get FFP3 masks?

Wearing a FFP3 mask seems like a pretty good way forward if you’re that concerned about infection. That has to be better than staying at home, surely?!

Otherwise, what solution are you proposing?

Because, if one thing is for sure, it’s that 68.5m healthy people are not going to be staying at home, living low quality lives, and damaging their own mental and physical health, to “protect” 1.5m vulnerable people. Neither is it reasonable to expect them to.

 

[brad465]

Which is why I worry about the critical thinking abilities of the population as a whole.

This whole episode seems to have shown up a weak spot there I think

If we taught critical thinking more widely in the population, neither this Government or a succession of previous ones would ever have gained power, and our consumerism dominated economy would have collapsed a long time ago, as we would have seen through narratives to support them and tactics like gaslighting (advertising comes under the gaslighting definition I think).

Covid has actually woken many up to the realities of not needing to buy so much stuff and valuing friendships/human contact, so it'll be interesting to see what happens when all restrictions are gone in relation to consumerism, in terms of how much people go back to old buying habits, and just how much advertising and other media onslaughts occur to ensure this happens.

 

[Yew]

What worries me isn't the critical thinking of the population - it's the obsessive positions that both sides in the mask debate show. The evidence is clear that it helps a bit and being asked to wear a mask in some circumstances doesn't infringe my civil liberties or undermine our democracy so I will do it - and if others don't want to, well I am relaxed about it in the same way that I don't get a fit of road rage if someone carves me up on a roundabout. I just give them lots of space!

That is demonstrably untrue.

 

[brad465]

Today the ONS report 90% of the population in England has antibodies (89.8% TBP), with the other 3 nations having similar values:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey, antibody and vaccination data, UK - Office for National Statistics

Estimates for England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. This survey is being delivered in partnership with University of Oxford, University of Manchester, Public Health England and Wellcome Trust

www.ons.gov.uk

• In England, it is estimated that around 9 in 10 adults, or 89.8% of the adult population (95% credible interval: 88.2% to 91.3%) would have tested positive for antibodies against coronavirus (COVID-19) - SARS-CoV-2 - on a blood test in the week beginning 14 June 2021, suggesting they had the infection in the past or have been vaccinated.
• In Wales, it is estimated that 9 in 10 adults, or 91.8% of the adult population (95% credible interval: 90.1% to 93.3%) would have tested positive for antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 on a blood test in the week beginning 14 June 2021, suggesting they had the infection in the past or have been vaccinated.
• In Northern Ireland, it is estimated that close to 9 in 10 adults, or 87.2% of the adult population (95% credible interval: 84.2% to 90.2%) would have tested positive for antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 on a blood test in the week beginning 14 June 2021, suggesting they had the infection in the past or have been vaccinated.
• In Scotland, it is estimated that over 8 in 10 adults, or 84.7% of the adult population (95% credible interval: 82.4% to 86.9%) would have tested positive for antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 on a blood test in the week beginning 14 June 2021, suggesting they had the infection in the past or have been vaccinated.
• Across all four countries of the UK, there is a clear pattern between vaccination and testing positive for COVID-19 antibodies but the detection of antibodies alone is not a precise measure of the immunity protection given by vaccination.

Once more further proof that things are looking very good, despite apparent rising cases and backing up much lower death and hospital admission rates.

 

[Mag_seven]

Today the ONS report 90% of the population in England has antibodies (89.8% TBP), with the other 3 nations having similar values:

Makes you wish that this was the metric they used to decide when to ease restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

Except of course FFP3 masks are very expensive ....

Masks are terrible for the environment, so in a way the ineffective flimsy masks that are currently mandated probably shouldn't be anywhere near as cheap as they are.

and there are issues of supply for these masks.

Are you sure? I was able to find a retailer online and get the items into my basket with no warning of being out of stock.

There are at least 1.5 million in the extremely vulnerable group do think they will all be able to get FFP3 masks?

How do you define "extremely vulnerable"? I think it would be an environmental travesty if 1.5 million people insist on wearing masks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2021 ==

Otherwise, what solution are you proposing?

I'd be curious to hear the answer to this. There is no viable alternative solution being proposed as far as I can see

What worries me isn't the critical thinking of the population - it's the obsessive positions that both sides in the mask debate show. The evidence is clear that it helps a bit ....

No; the evidence is clear that flimsy masks are ineffective.

and being asked to wear a mask in some circumstances doesn't infringe my civil liberties or undermine our democracy so I will do it ...

That's your choice, but being mandated to wear a mask is a quite different matter.

and if others don't want to, well I am relaxed about it ...

Good; everyone should be! If anyone isn't, then they have the choice to wear an FFP3 mask if they want protection for themselves (rather than the false impression of protection granted to them by others being mandated to wear flimsy ineffective masks!)

 

[Static65]

Grant Shapps has just said to the transport committee that he will fully support train and tube operators in mandating the wearing of masks as a condition of carriage beyond 19th July. He says that whilst the Government's position is to move from law to guidance and common sense in most circumstances, he believes there are locations such as busy train and tube lines where it will be "entirely reasonable" to expect continued mask wearing and he is happy for individual operators to enforce this on their own terms, on a company by company basis.

 

[MikeWM]

When you start to read some of the studies trying to prove how effective masks may be in non-clinical settings, a theme starts to emerge. Whilst there is practically no scientific evidence that demonstrates effectiveness in public settings, there are often references to them helping with behavioural characteristics. Or in other words, masks act as a reminder to the proles that there are restrictions in place & to behave themselves.

And, possibly even more key, also gives people the illusion that they can do something concrete and specific to regain some measure of control over something unpleasant.

People *really* don't like being told 'something bad is happening, but there's nothing you can do about it', so even when this is totally true (as in the case of an infectious respiratory virus passing through the population), they want things to do to get back the illusion of control. Whether these things actually work or not isn't that important, there is a need to think that they do and are therefore willing to listen to any evidence, however poor or slight, that backs that up.

This also at least partially explains why so many people are reluctant now to give up mask-wearing - it is about giving up (the illusion of) having some control over all of this.

Note I'm really not being critical of the general population (generally or specifically) by saying this; it is just human nature to behave in this way. And the behavioural psychologists 'advising' the government will know this all too well.

 

[big_rig]

Grant Shapps has just said to the transport committee that he will fully support train and tube operators in mandating the wearing of masks as a condition of carriage beyond 19th July. He says that whilst the Government's position is to move from law to guidance and common sense in most circumstances, he believes there are locations such as busy train and tube lines where it will be "entirely reasonable" to expect continued mask wearing and he is happy for individual operators to enforce this on their own terms, on a company by company basis.

I went and had a listen to this - I think there is a bit to come out in the wash to be honest. I couldn't really understand Shapps' position - he seemed to be saying that operators could mandate masks as a condition of carriage on 'certain routes' or for 'busy services' (but also that he is only 'setting out guidance') which when you think about it seems like a nonsense. Would SWR make the 15:44 to Shepperton mask-voluntary but the 17:44 mask only? Will the Victoria line be mask-free during the middle of the day and late in the evenings on weekdays, but mask-mandatory on weekend evenings and during peak times? What if there's a signal failure during an 'off peak' time, do you then have to carry a mask to put on? If he lets Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham set the rules they will make it mask-mandatory until the year 2047 when the vaccine program finally finished (but then they'll put it back due to the millionth variant of concern).

 

[37424]

Masks are terrible for the environment, so in a way the ineffective flimsy masks that are currently mandated probably shouldn't be anywhere near as cheap as they are.


Are you sure? I was able to find a retailer online and get the items into my basket with no warning of being out of stock.


How do you define "extremely vulnerable"? I think it would be an environmental travesty if 1.5 million people insist on wearing masks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2021 ==


I'd be curious to hear the answer to this. There is no viable alternative solution being proposed as far as I can see

No; the evidence is clear that flimsy masks are ineffective.


That's your choice, but being mandated to wear a mask is a quite different matter.



Good; everyone should be! If anyone isn't, then they have the choice to wear an FFP3 mask if they want protection for themselves (rather than the false impression of protection granted to them by others being mandated to wear flimsy ineffective masks!)

Yes you can get them at the moment but you couldn't at the height of the pandemic and if there is a sudden surge in demand from people at high risk with the ending of restrictions the same may apply.

Extremely Vulnerable were defined by the shielding program and included a variety of conditions and expect it may well make sense for most of these people to get FFP3 masks given the impending free for all, and as a medical person has just pointed out to me the effectiveness of these masks depends on how well they fit.

 

[birchesgreen]

Masks are easy to get now because huge factories in China switched over from other items to make them last year, in March/April 2020 you had to wait ages and then you were limited as to how many you could order.

To be honest i bought a couple of cloth based ones off Etsy and have used them ever since for train travel and shops, regularly washed natch, best 4.99 i've ever spent...

 

[Bantamzen]

Masks are easy to get now because huge factories in China switched over from other items to make them last year, in March/April 2020 you had to wait ages and then you were limited as to how many you could order.

To be honest i bought a couple of cloth based ones off Etsy and have used them ever since for train travel and shops, regularly washed natch, best 4.99 i've ever spent...

Ah but do you change them over at least every 4 hours, replace them when you touch them, wash your hands before and after touching them....??

 

[MikeWM]

I couldn't really understand Shapps' position - he seemed to be saying that operators could mandate masks as a condition of carriage on 'certain routes' or for 'busy services' (but also that he is only 'setting out guidance') which when you think about it seems like a nonsense.

Operators will still also have to follow the Equalities Act, which was the origin of most of the existing exemptions in the current regulations.

There is a potential 'gap' however in that the current regulations also have measures that for example cover people who cannot wear a mask due to past physical or sexual abuse - and I'm not sure they would be covered by the Equalities Act. I fear that if we're not careful we could end up in a worse place here than we are already.

Allowing individual operators/businesses to set their own rules is probably unavoidable to some extent (I don't see the Government passing any legislation to say that businesses can't require masks, and indeed they probably shouldn't) but *encouraging* them to do so seems deeply unhelpful.

 

[birchesgreen]

Ah but do you change them over at least every 4 hours, replace them when you touch them, wash your hands before and after touching them....??

I carry a laboratory grade steriliser with me at all times, you can't be too careful.

 

[DelayRepay]

Ventilation is a tricky one particularly in winter, given that the places where we will most want to be are by their nature, cosy.

You are right, especially given that modern buildings are designed to conserve energy. Anyone opening a window to let the fresh air in during winter 2019 would have been considered out of their mind.

It's tricky, but not impossible. With the benefit of hindsight, some of the money spent on plastic screens and track and trace and so on might have been better spent making adaptations to buildings to improve ventilation.

 

[Static65]

I went and had a listen to this - I think there is a bit to come out in the wash to be honest. I couldn't really understand Shapps' position - he seemed to be saying that operators could mandate masks as a condition of carriage on 'certain routes' or for 'busy services' (but also that he is only 'setting out guidance') which when you think about it seems like a nonsense. Would SWR make the 15:44 to Shepperton mask-voluntary but the 17:44 mask only? Will the Victoria line be mask-free during the middle of the day and late in the evenings on weekdays, but mask-mandatory on weekend evenings and during peak times? What if there's a signal failure during an 'off peak' time, do you then have to carry a mask to put on? If he lets Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham set the rules they will make it mask-mandatory until the year 2047 when the vaccine program finally finished (but then they'll put it back due to the millionth variant of concern).

I think you have his position exactly right.

Shapps will be fully aware that making the 17:44 service mandatory but the 15:44 voluntary would be completely unworkable.

In reality, the government's position means that operators have been empowered to continue to require masks as a blanket restriction as this will be easier to manage operationally and allow them to appease the pressure to keep social distancing measures from unions and the likes of Andy Burnham etc, whilst ensuring that any backlash is deflected locally and not towards the Government.

 

[43066]

Yes you can get them at the moment but you couldn't at the height of the pandemic and if there is a sudden surge in demand from people at high risk with the ending of restrictions the same may apply.

Extremely Vulnerable were defined by the shielding program and included a variety of conditions and expect it may well make sense for most of these people to get FFP3 masks given the impending free for all, and as a medical person has just pointed out to me the effectiveness of these masks depends on how well they fit.

So, I’ll ask again, if FFP3 masks aren’t available/too expensive/don’t fit (delete as appropriate), what is your proposed solution?