Covid restrictions to end on 19th July

[yorkie]

Remind me, what demographics are these people in?

I think @edwin_m means no adaptive immunity, but I would dispute the figure as vastly inaccurate. What @edwin_m is forgetting is innate immunity.

But people who call for restrictions don't tend to understand how immune systems or viruses actually work.

 

[bramling]

It can only get better by getting to the herd immunity threshold. Clearly we aren't there yet, there are probably 20 million people with no immunity in the UK. My concern is that that's enough to overwhelm the NHS if too many catch it at once. This could still happen if restrictions are relaxed and there is a commitment never to re-impose them.

The NHS can't just be expanded overnight or even in a couple of years. You might persuade Sunak to throw more money and build the facilities quickly, as happened with the Nightingales, but it takes years to train up the staff (and offering a 1% pay rise doesn't help much in attracting new recruits).

I've explained in a previous post why comparisons with flu deaths are totally misleading. Anyone who uses this argument isn't understanding the science.

The question is how much of our lives are we prepared to put on hold / throw away in order to stop the NHS getting busy, and of course the impact this has on livelihoods. We also have to consider the fact that the NHS is funded as a result of these livelihoods, and that if we cause too much damage then this will eventually go round in a vicious circle.

I am happy to support a lockdown as an emergency measure. Last March was that, on the basis that we didn’t know what we were dealing with, and we had pretty much zero mitigation in place - “please don’t enter this shop if you’ve been to China and feel unwell” was about the total of it at the time! By contrast we’re now into our second summer, and I don’t believe we should be throwing that much of our lives away. Many older people feel the same - they would rather enjoy what time they have, than be cooped up like a prisoner.

 

[duncanp]

I’m sick to high heaven of hearing all the hand wringing about the NHS - especially when we read that a high number of Covid deaths have resulted from infections in hospitals - so the NHS’ own poor infection control practices have directly contributed to the death rate.

I have reservations about the awarding of the George Cross to the NHS as an organisation.

It encourages the public to think of all NHS staff as "heroes", and all the various "thanskgiving services" taking place today seems to confirm that worship of the NHS is becoming the new national religion.

I do realise that many NHS staff are dedicated and hard working, and do the best they can in difficult circumstances, but describing them all as heroes and treating the NHS as if it was God like precludes any discussion about the problems that the NHS faces, or the reforms that it needs.

 

[Failed Unit]

You can add plenty of people in Cambridge cycling wearing them (not just the odd one or two "fearful" people, but maybe 20-25% of cyclists I see). Personally I've no idea how people do it - I'd be passing out, as I once found out when I put one on too quickly after pulling up!

I find it strange when you see cyclists wearing masks but no helmet. Considering that a head injury in an accident is more likely to cause problems then the small chance of catching COVID while cycling.

 

[notlob.divad]

Another thread that has descended into Masks Good v Masks Bad. It is getting very boring now.

I really worry for the UK after the 19th July. If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

 

[bramling]

I have reservations about the awarding of the George Cross to the NHS as an organisation.

It encourages the public to think of all NHS staff as "heroes", and all the various "thanskgiving services" taking place today seems to confirm that worship of the NHS is becoming the new national religion.

I do realise that many NHS staff are dedicated and hard working, and do the best they can in difficult circumstances, but describing them all as heroes and treating the NHS as if it was God like precludes any discussion about the problems that the NHS faces, or the reforms that it needs.

Absolutely. As 43066 rightly says, a lot of infections trace back to none other than the NHS. I can think of a family in my close circles who have lost three, all tracing back to becoming infected within an NHS setting. Likewise for one of these, the care received from the NHS was sufficiently slapdash that the relatives find some of the NHS worshipping distinctly distasteful. There’s also plenty of stories where people have been unable to get access to a GP, or get fobbed off, and no doubt we’re going to see a lot of belated diagnoses over the coming months and perhaps years.

The discourse over the NHS needs to be mature, not blue hearts, banging pots, elderly men doing laps, or whatever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

I find it strange when you see cyclists wearing masks but no helmet. Considering that a head injury in an accident is more likely to cause problems then the small chance of catching COVID while cycling.

Surely a lot of the cyclists wearing masks will be doing it as an anti-pollution measure?

 

[westv]

Another thread that has descended into Masks Good v Masks Bad. It is getting very boring now.

I really worry for the UK after the 19th July. If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

On the flip side lots of virtue signalling from those that do towards those that don't.
Hopefully neither will happen to any great degree.

 

[bramling]

Another thread that has descended into Masks Good v Masks Bad. It is getting very boring now.

I really worry for the UK after the 19th July. If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

I don’t see it. What will happen is a greater number will be empowered enough not to wear a mask in the relevant settings. This process has already been going on over time - mask use on something like the London Underground is already tailing off very fast.

There may well be issues if a maskophile decides to attempt to make a scene, however I suspect there will be a critical mass of people without for this to be ineffective. In fact I’d say we’re already there in places.

 

[Failed Unit]

Therefore we should have a high bar before introducing such a measure. 'It makes people feel better' (because they've been subject to incessant propaganda for over a year) isn't remotely good enough when it has such an impact on people's lives, and cohesion of society as a whole.



Agreed in that case - though still younger children will have spent a significant proportion of their lives now seeing people (other than their family) masked in many situation. I'm not at all convinced that is good for their healthy development.



Of course not everyone in any particular category feels the same, and we shouldn't assume they do.

I know the science is not proven. But mask Wearing is mandatory in Scotland. Yet it still has the highest number of people infected per day. Higher than when no masks were compulsory.
I know I will get arguments now that if masks were not compulsory the infection rate in Scotland would be double.
maybe - but we will never know. I think our biggest risk now is not knowing how much double vaccination can still spread it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

Absolutely. As 43066 rightly says, a lot of infections trace back to none other than the NHS. I can think of a family in my close circles who have lost three, all tracing back to becoming infected within an NHS setting. Likewise for one of these, the care received from the NHS was sufficiently slapdash that the relatives find some of the NHS worshipping distinctly distasteful. There’s also plenty of stories where people have been unable to get access to a GP, or get fobbed off, and no doubt we’re going to see a lot of belated diagnoses over the coming months and perhaps years.

The discourse over the NHS needs to be mature, not blue hearts, banging pots, elderly men doing laps, or whatever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==



Surely a lot of the cyclists wearing masks will be doing it as an anti-pollution measure?

Much more likely. But I have see kids forced to wear them by parents. Big scene in street etc. Kid of course takes of mask out of sight. But I did make me think said parents seriously have their priorities wring. Head injuries tend to be serious.

 

[duncanp]

Absolutely. As 43066 rightly says, a lot of infections trace back to none other than the NHS. I can think of a family in my close circles who have lost three, all tracing back to becoming infected within an NHS setting. Likewise for one of these, the care received from the NHS was sufficiently slapdash that the relatives find some of the NHS worshipping distinctly distasteful. There’s also plenty of stories where people have been unable to get access to a GP, or get fobbed off, and no doubt we’re going to see a lot of belated diagnoses over the coming months and perhaps years.

The discourse over the NHS needs to be mature, not blue hearts, banging pots, elderly men doing laps, or whatever.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

The headline in the Daily Express today was "Queen awards George Cross to NHS Heroes", underneath which was a strapline saying "Now Give Them The Pay Rise They Deserve".

This only encourages hero worship of the NHS and its' staff, which is unhealthy to say the least.

I don't dispute that NHS staff deserve a pay rise, but in difficult economic circumstances when many people have lost their jobs or seen their businesses collapse, deserving a pay rise and actually getting one are not the same thing.

 

[notlob.divad]

I find it strange when you see cyclists wearing masks but no helmet. Considering that a head injury in an accident is more likely to cause problems then the small chance of catching COVID while cycling.

Cyclists have been wearing masks on the road for far longer thna covid has been a thing. The high propensity for wearing masks amongst the general public of late, may just mean that more masks (and a higher variety of masks) are available, thus more cyclist have taken up the practice.

It is likely to be as much about exhaust fumes as Covid. Certainly if I was riding daily in London or another urban area I would be wearing something across my face.
Consider, in such an urban enviroment
a) any potential head injury is under my control, if I am rolling a long at a relatively low speed I have 100% confidence in my bike handling ability on well surfaced cycle paths.
b) the biggest threat to me is careless and dangerous driving by the people authorised to use potentially lethal weapons as a means of transport. In this scenaro a helmet would provide protection to a very small portion of my total body. It would provide no protection to my body being crushed under the wheels of the vehicle, my spine being broken by the impact or numerous other potential causes of death or serious injury. What the helmet may do is mean I have to keep living with those dibilitating injuries caused by someone else.
c) the second biggest threat to my quality of life is breathing in the exhaust fumes of vehicles on my journey. It could leave me with long term health issues which I would have to continue living with for the rest of my life. Yet unlike the incidents a helmet could protect me from, I have no control over it, and zero escape from it. A mask in seems an incredibly sensible thing to wear in my opinion.

Add in covid and the high availability of masks, combined with a wider social acceptance of doing so and it becames an obvious step to take.

PS I used to wear a helmet every single time I rode a bicycle. I still have a helmet and wear it when ever I do serious riding, I have bought for and successfully encouraged my partner to wear one when we are out. But I have also come to the conclussion that when riding on my cities wide array of well maintained segregated cycle paths, to go to the beach or do the shopping, wearing the helmet is unessesary.

 

[Domh245]

Another thread that has descended into Masks Good v Masks Bad. It is getting very boring now.

I really worry for the UK after the 19th July. If some people on here are correct in their assertions, I can see hoards of anti-maskers intentionally invading the personal space of those who choose to continue wearing masks, just so they can make a point.

Idiots and obnoxious people (those who might deliberately invade the personal space of others to make a point..) will be idiots and obnoxious people, regardless of what happens. I'm just looking forward to the end of compulsory mask wearing so I no longer have to go through the theatre of wearing a mask in an empty carriage, dangling one off my ear whilst drinking coffee, or being subjected to barrages of announcements about "wanting to feel safe"

 

[notlob.divad]

I’m sorry, but anyone saying that people have not been needlessly terrified into submission by ridiculously over-the-top government messaging and this massive overreaction to what is, at a glance, a relatively mild respiratory virus is completely clueless.

I have taken up a job as a temporary summer worker in a store owned by a well-known retailer. The number of customers I serve on a daily basis, particularly elderly, who:

1) Not only wear masks, but also wear gloves when in the store

2) are cautious and constantly alert to maintain a 2m distance from others

3) Are visibly uncomfortable/anxious about the crowds/contact they have with others

is extremely alarming. Not least because the government are effectively responsible for terrifying an entire population needlessly, but because these people are now struggling to live their daily lives because of the government trying to frighten them into submission to comply with what are, at best, some half-baked political “rules” with little to no scientific basis.

There’s one customer who sticks in my mind more than any other when it comes to this.

It was a few days ago during the week. I was serving an elderly lady who:

Was wearing a FFP3 masks AND a face visor

Was wearing gloves

Was socially distancing herself (she refused to even place any items on the conveyor belt when the previous customer was about 3-4m away getting served.

Was visibly shaking when she had to stand near me to make her payment

Wiped down all the items with her gloves before placing them into her bag

Moved behind the screen whenever she needed to talk to me

My heart broke for this customer. This is NOT her fault. This is the fault of a government who are drunk on their own power and don’t think about anything other than how to promote and enforce some frankly needless, pointless, theatrical rules just to “look good” in the eyes of those who they have now terrified into submission. This is a sad, sad time for this county and I am beyond disgraced at what has happened to what was once a nation I was proud to be a part of. I can only hope that this will be confined to history books as a massive mistake and we will move on, wisen up, and start to recover from what has been, in my opinion, the most dramatic, disgusting act of government control ever imposed in our country’s modern history.

But this is exactly what people who say they want no rules and people to make their own decision on risks are asking for more of. She is taking responsibility for her own health, protecting herself. None of us have any idea what medical conditions she may have that may make her more vulnerable to the effects of this virus. None of us know if she has been able to be vaccinated or has some condition that prevents that. And no one, not even herself or the best doctors in the world know if the very very very effective vaccine is effective for her, or if she is in the small minority of people who may still be vulnerable.

She has two options, lock herself away at home (shielding) isolating herself from the rest of society and sacrifing her independence. Or doing exactly what she is doing, and taking every precaution possible whislt still being terrified. Even if the government hadn't promoted the rules that they have done, are you saying they also shouldn't have told us the virus existed, shouldn't have told us that it can kill vulnerable old people, and thus just let old people like this lady die a pretty traumatic death but it is OK, because at least they wer not scared to be in public.

I am not defending the restrictions here, just pointing out that unless the government had completly with held all information on this virus (a very very authoritarian idea that China was at least initially accused of.) the lady in question would have been just as scared of dying from it and probably would have been taking exactly the same precautions, but probably with less respect for her doing so from the wider public.

 

[island]

They could try but the current mask mandate is not part of the by-laws which is why only the BTP can enforce.

A by-law change would take time

Enforcement of face covering requirements on TfL is in my wide experience negligible to non-existent.

So am I, but as a non-authoritarian moderate, the far left has repulsed me for quite some time now, and right now I find them utterly odious, and it's absolutely brilliant seeing their reaction. They are desperate to deny the effectiveness of vaccines and demand that everyone wears ineffective masks, while not even considering wearing effective masks themselves.

The 19th of July can't come soon enough for me; I see this as a huge victory for the moderates over the hysterical extremists.

I agree Entirely.

I would have thought that it will be the employers call on whether people have to go back to the office and how often.

It already is, in effect. The company I work for has allowed anyone who wishes to opt to work from the office to do so since 12 April. At some point we will be requiring a minimum 40% attendance (in order to avoid any unintended consequences around setting people’s default place of work); this might be the 19th or we might delay it until after the school holidays.

I find it strange when you see cyclists wearing masks but no helmet. Considering that a head injury in an accident is more likely to cause problems then the small chance of catching COVID while cycling.

Cyclists have been wearing masks for a long time prior to COVID; they are effective against inhaling microparticles from vehicle exhausts.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I was very unhappy when the delayed the restrictions release last time. But I guess in hindsight it was maybe a good thing while the Euros were happening. People will push the boundaries, we will be lots of photos in the press about no one social distancing etc. But although infection are up, vaccinated people are passing it on etc, things are not bad. However I am sure the pubs are not happy about the loss of income. If we can keep serious illness down through a tournament that gets people together. They must be running out of reasons now to keep us locked up. As I have said on other threads. Now the summer holidays are about to happen I don’t expect our office to have many in until September even if they open it on July 20th.

 

[MikeWM]

I know the science is not proven. But mask Wearing is mandatory in Scotland. Yet it still has the highest number of people infected per day. Higher than when no masks were compulsory.
I know I will get arguments now that if masks were not compulsory the infection rate in Scotland would be double.
maybe - but we will never know.

Indeed not - but the idea that they are 'important' or 'needed' is clearly nonsense when, as per Scotland (and England), there is now mounds of evidence from all around the world that they are entirely useless.

One 'useful' thing that has stemmed from the delay to June 21st, and the rise in 'cases' since, is that it is now very obvious (again!) that the measures we still currently have in place do absolutely nothing to stop a virus from spreading.

 

[43066]

But this is exactly what people who say they want no rules and people to make their own decision on risks are asking for more of. She is taking responsibility for her own health, protecting herself. None of us have any idea what medical conditions she may have that may make her more vulnerable to the effects of this virus. None of us know if she has been able to be vaccinated or has some condition that prevents that. And no one, not even herself or the best doctors in the world know if the very very very effective vaccine is effective for her, or if she is in the small minority of people who may still be vulnerable.

She has two options, lock herself away at home (shielding) isolating herself from the rest of society and sacrifing her independence. Or doing exactly what she is doing, and taking every precaution possible whislt still being terrified. Even if the government hadn't promoted the rules that they have done, are you saying they also shouldn't have told us the virus existed, shouldn't have told us that it can kill vulnerable old people, and thus just let old people like this lady die a pretty traumatic death but it is OK, because at least they wer not scared to be in public.

But quite simply, the people you describe above (unvaccinated and incapable of being vaccinated) are such a tiny minority that we cannot realistically close our society down to protect them. We don’t bat an eyelid at thirty or forty thousand deaths from flu per year.

We seem to have lost any grown up perspective on life and death in this country. People cannot live for ever!

 

[edwin_m]

But those 20 million are made up of:

• children/teenagers, who generally only suffer mild symptoms
• people who cannot have vaccines for medical reasons
• people who have been offered a vaccine but declined it (I know for a few weeks we have a large number waiting for second doses)

The first group don't typically need to go into hospital, the second group are tiny and the third group is quite small and will reduce significantly over the next few weeks as more vaccines are given.

I can see the potential for a large number of infections, but cannot see this translating into significant additional pressure on the NHS.

Remind me, what demographics are these people in?

The demographics are irrelevant. Currently statistics show that whatever demographic they are in, enough of them are vulnerable to cause hospitalisations to increase. The spread of vaccination should turn this round in time, but I really don't think anyone can safely say how long this will take or how high it will go in the meantime.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2021 ==

Indeed not - but the idea that they are 'important' or 'needed' is clearly nonsense when, as per Scotland (and England), there is now mounds of evidence from all around the world that they are entirely useless.

One 'useful' thing that has stemmed from the delay to June 21st, and the rise in 'cases' since, is that it is now very obvious (again!) that the measures we still currently have in place do absolutely nothing to stop a virus from spreading.

On your first point - evidence?

On your second - that rather suggests nothing short of lockdown will slow the increase. Despite what some may assume about me, I don't believe that.

 

[Bikeman78]

Just staying with transport, do we expect train companies to make mask-wearing voluntary, make all train seats available and remove compulsory seat reservation where it has been introduced?

Aside from LNER, are there any TOCs that don't allow or expect every seat to be taken? Recently I've been on full trains (75% or more of seats taken with people standing) on Merseyrail, TfW, Greater Anglia, Southern and TFL Rail.

 

[MikeWM]

On your first point - evidence?

They are clearly not preventing the virus from spreading at the moment in England or Scotland. They didn't do so last September, October or December either.

Of course, it can always be said that 'things could be even worse without them' but what has happened in places like Sweden and various US states shows that to be rather unlikely.

On your second - that rather suggests nothing short of lockdown will slow the increase. Despite what some may assume about me, I don't believe that.

All I'm suggesting is that the current measures are clearly not stopping the virus from spreading, which surely can't be a controversial point?

The related question is whether it matters if the virus is spreading at this point? I don't think it does (and, at last, it seems the goverment doesn't either).

 

[Bikeman78]

I do not wear masks on trains or in supermarkets and i have not experienced any disputes, and it is not as if i am 6 foot 6 and 18 stone.

Likewise I've seen people of all ages, shapes and sizes not wearing them with minimal dispute. The only example was an angry old man on the Circle line last year that swore at four young people sitting near me. Two of them were eating at the time so no requirement to wear a mask anyway. He was walking up and down the train picking on people so clearly looking for trouble.

 

[edwin_m]

They are clearly not preventing the virus from spreading at the moment in England or Scotland. They didn't do so last September, October or December either.

Of course, it can always be said that 'things could be even worse without them' but what has happened in places like Sweden and various US states shows that to be rather unlikely.



All I'm suggesting is that the current measures are clearly not stopping the virus from spreading, which surely can't be a controversial point?

The related question is whether it matters if the virus is spreading at this point? I don't think it does (and, at last, it seems the goverment doesn't either).

It an interesting thought to be saying effectively that we should either go to full lockdown or no restrictions. You may be right, but I'd like to see some scientific studies. Sweden did worse than the countries around it where you'd expect conditions to be similar other than the policy adopted, but those countries went for lockdown (as ultimately did Sweden).

US states don't really tell us much. The average vaccination rate is similar to ours, but there is a big split between the highly-vaccinated states, and the others where takeup is low due to Trump and other reasons. These are going to see mass carnage unless they can persuade more people to get the vaccine or they are willing to re-impose lockdown. There is a relaxation of the mask mandate for the double-vaccinated, which as far as I know hasn't led to runaway infections, but it isn't a "personal choice" matter as appears to be proposed here. Also Delta hasn't yet become dominant there.

I've already set out my views on your final point, which I won't repeat again, other than to say that if the government says so it makes me less likely to agree.

 

[al78]

You can add plenty of people in Cambridge cycling wearing them (not just the odd one or two "fearful" people, but maybe 20-25% of cyclists I see). Personally I've no idea how people do it - I'd be passing out, as I once found out when I put one on too quickly after pulling up!

I have worn a mask once when cycling, from Hassocks to Pyecombe which involves going over a significant hill, and it wasn't awful, certainly I was nowhere near passing out, but the heavier breathing resulted in my glasses fogging up which is a nuisance. Cycling in Cambridge in a mask won't be a problem, it is flat and I doubt it is possible to cycle fast around the town.

 

[notlob.divad]

But quite simply, the people you describe above (unvaccinated and incapable of being vaccinated) are such a tiny minority that we cannot realistically close our society down to protect them. We don’t bat an eyelid at thirty or forty thousand deaths from flu per year.

We seem to have lost any grown up perspective on life and death in this country. People cannot live for ever!

I absolutely agree with the raw words you are saying. But at the same time cannot agree with the way Huntergreed framed the picture.

Closing down society is one thing, wearing basic protection equipment is clearly another. Equally everyone who seems to be demanding a return to a 2019 society, seems to be implying that 2019 was perfect. Frankly for a long time I have been pissed off with people invading my personal space in public environments, being presented with a public transportation system that seems to have an operating model that requires it to run at levels of overcrowding. If 2020 and 2021 have taught us anything, I hope it is that a bit of personal space is not just a nice to have but a nessesity, and without shutting society down, making an allowance for those who need/value it should not be seen as a luxury.

 

[al78]

You've got that the wrong way round.

We should be requiring evidence that something actually works before demanding it, rather than assuming it does and requiring evidence that it doesn't before removing it. Particularly where a perfectly natural activity (such as breathing) is concerned.

Face masks: what the data say

The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?

www.nature.com

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...

www.pnas.org

Does Wearing a Mask Prevent the Flu?

Learn when masks can help and what other hygiene measures to take for prevention.

www.healthline.com

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2

This JAMA Insights CDC review summarizes accumulating evidence that mask wearing reduces spread of SARS-CoV-2 infection and that universal mandatory mask wearing policies reduce infections and deaths and emphasizes face masks are one component of pandemic control measures, including physical...

jamanetwork.com

Problem is, it doesn't matter how much evidence I or anyone else shows that masks have a positive effect on combatting transmission, denialists believe the truth is what they want to believe, not what the real world data implies is the truth. It is no different from climate change, vaccination, homeopathy, or anything else with polarised opinions.

The only real defence against denialism is to first counter it then ignore it, leave them behind and do what the data suggests should be done. Far too much time is wasted on back and forth arguments by people with extremist views who don't care about the truth, they only care about being right.

 

[notlob.divad]

Problem is, it doesn't matter how much evidence I or anyone else shows that masks have a positive effect on combatting transmission, denialists believe the truth is what they want to believe, not what the real world data implies is the truth. It is no different from climate change, vaccination, homeopathy, or anything else with polarised opinions.

The only real defence against denialism is to first counter it then ignore it, leave them behind and do what the data suggests should be done. Far too much time is wasted on back and forth arguments by people with extremist views who don't care about the truth, they only care about being right.

Well said.

 

[Bikeman78]

It was a few days ago during the week. I was serving an elderly lady who:

Was wearing a FFP3 masks AND a face visor

Was wearing gloves

Was socially distancing herself (she refused to even place any items on the conveyor belt when the previous customer was about 3-4m away getting served.

Was visibly shaking when she had to stand near me to make her payment

Wiped down all the items with her gloves before placing them into her bag

Moved behind the screen whenever she needed to talk to me

My heart broke for this customer. This is NOT her fault.

Yes I agree that this is terrible. If this happens again when I'm in my 80s, I don't think I'll be that bothered. There are plenty of worse ways to go.

 

[yorksrob]

Face masks: what the data say

The science supports that face coverings are saving lives during the coronavirus pandemic, and yet the debate trundles on. How much evidence is enough?

www.nature.com

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...

www.pnas.org

Does Wearing a Mask Prevent the Flu?

Learn when masks can help and what other hygiene measures to take for prevention.

www.healthline.com

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2

This JAMA Insights CDC review summarizes accumulating evidence that mask wearing reduces spread of SARS-CoV-2 infection and that universal mandatory mask wearing policies reduce infections and deaths and emphasizes face masks are one component of pandemic control measures, including physical...

jamanetwork.com

Problem is, it doesn't matter how much evidence I or anyone else shows that masks have a positive effect on combatting transmission, denialists believe the truth is what they want to believe, not what the real world data implies is the truth. It is no different from climate change, vaccination, homeopathy, or anything else with polarised opinions.

The only real defence against denialism is to first counter it then ignore it, leave them behind and do what the data suggests should be done. Far too much time is wasted on back and forth arguments by people with extremist views who don't care about the truth, they only care about being right.

So given where we are with the vaccine, where is your evidence that not having mask wearing will lead to the overwhealming of the health services ?

 

[NorthOxonian]

Closing down society is one thing, wearing basic protection equipment is clearly another. Equally everyone who seems to be demanding a return to a 2019 society, seems to be implying that 2019 was perfect. Frankly for a long time I have been pissed off with people invading my personal space in public environments, being presented with a public transportation system that seems to have an operating model that requires it to run at levels of overcrowding. If 2020 and 2021 have taught us anything, I hope it is that a bit of personal space is not just a nice to have but a nessesity, and without shutting society down, making an allowance for those who need/value it should not be seen as a luxury.

What is basic protectional equipment to one person is an object of terror to many others. The mask debate has been done to death on here, and doesn't need to be rehashed - but surely even if you think they're important in the current circumstances, you wouldn't accept living in a masked society for all eternity?

As to your point about personal space, would you be prepared to pay more for that extra space? Because while reducing overcrowding is a noble goal, that also reduces revenue which has to be made up from somewhere. I'd also point out that not everyone values personal space so much - so while it's fine as a voluntary thing, I'm not happy with the state demanding I distance from everyone in all contexts. Indeed, at a pub or a nightclub, I don't really want to have a lot of personal space!

 

[MikeWM]

It an interesting thought to be saying effectively that we should either go to full lockdown or no restrictions.

I'm not entirely sure that I am saying that But I don't think it is any secret that I don't believe there should ever have been *any* *legal* restrictions.

Sweden did worse than the countries around it where you'd expect conditions to be similar other than the policy adopted, but those countries went for lockdown (as ultimately did Sweden).

It depends on your definition of 'worse' - I'd say that has to be evaluated in terms of the overall health and success of the society and its population, not just the metric of Covid deaths. The Swedes have certainly has a more pleasant last 16 months than most of the rest of western Europe.

Plus Sweden never locked down, I'm not sure why you think they did. They had some measures but way short of what any other western European country did. Also they never mandated masks in any setting, or indeed recommend them (except for a short period of time on public transport, during peak hours only).

US states don't really tell us much.

Actually I think they tell us a lot. When you look at neighbouring states (with similar climate), you can see the progress of cases, hospitalisations and deaths all march very closely together, despite the very different restrictions (or lack of restrictions) that each state put in place. @IanSMc on twitter has hundreds of such graphs to look at, and the evidence appears very clear indeed.

The average vaccination rate is similar to ours, but there is a big split between the highly-vaccinated states, and the others where takeup is low due to Trump and other reasons. These are going to see mass carnage unless they can persuade more people to get the vaccine or they are willing to re-impose lockdown.

We shall see what happens, but I was referring to the data we have so far.

There is a relaxation of the mask mandate for the double-vaccinated, which as far as I know hasn't led to runaway infections, but it isn't a "personal choice" matter as appears to be proposed here.

But (thank goodness!) there are no checks of whether people are vaccinated or not, so it actually effectively is 'personal choice'.

I've already set out my views on your final point, which I won't repeat again, other than to say that if the government says so it makes me less likely to agree.

Well, I'll agree with the government if I think they are right, and disagree with them when I think they are wrong (which has been most of the last 16 months).