Court summons

[cleggy145]

I travelled from Sheffield to meadowhall on an East Midlands train a couple of months ago, I didn't buy a ticket and when I left the train I was stopped by an officer. I had no intention of not paying for a ticket as I had the money in the correct change in my pocket which the officer obviously refused, she then asked me some questions under caution and said I would receive a letter, the letter came which was just confirmation of what happened which I signed and sent back. This week I have now received a court summons which means I will be paying god knows how much in admin fees and then probably a fine. At not one point was I obstructive and always received the fact that it was my fault and my excuse of that I was in a rush was not a valid one, I now don't understand why I wasn't issued with a penalty notice fare which I would have paid and now face prosecution. I don't really know what is happening as they have provided me with little information except from a court date. Has anyone got any advice as it would be much appreciated? I was going to give the prosecution department a call on Tuesday.

Also what annoys me now is that this is the only time I have ever seen these officers at this station and I travel through at least twice a week.

 

[Rich McLean]

I travelled from Sheffield to meadowhall on an East Midlands train a couple of months ago, I didn't buy a ticket and when I left the train I was stopped by an officer. I had no intention of not paying for a ticket as I had the money in the correct change in my pocket which the officer obviously refused, she then asked me some questions under caution and said I would receive a letter, the letter came which was just confirmation of what happened which I signed and sent back. This week I have now received a court summons which means I will be paying god knows how much in admin fees and then probably a fine. At not one point was I obstructive and always received the fact that it was my fault and my excuse of that I was in a rush was not a valid one, I now don't understand why I wasn't issued with a penalty notice fare which I would have paid and now face prosecution. I don't really know what is happening as they have provided me with little information except from a court date. Has anyone got any advice as it would be much appreciated? I was going to give the prosecution department a call on Tuesday.

Also what annoys me now is that this is the only time I have ever seen these officers at this station and I travel through at least twice a week.

Did you explain your version of events in the letter you received from EMT. If you did, did you offer to settle out of court and apologise?

Most companies are willing to settle out of court, and this can be done right up until the date of the hearing. However, they are not obliged to accept this and can go straight for prosecution, as its an open and shut case.

Penalty fare's are there for honest mistakes, not for fare evasion

Also, have you been caught before, or is this a first time offence?

Does the summons letter mention Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA) or does it mention a byelaw offence?

Where were you travelling from and to?

 

[island]

Why did you not purchase a ticket before travelling, like everyone else does?

 

[SickyNicky]

DPenalty fare's are there for honest mistakes, which include buying the wrong ticket, on the wrong route, using off peak tickets during peak etc.

In the interest of accuracy, it's worth reading our Fares and Ticketing guide, section 10 post on when Penalty Fares can be issued. They can't, for example, be issued for not adhereing to a route restriction on your ticket (the excess is payable) or for using an off peak ticket at peak times (again, an excess is payable).

If you are issued a Penalty Fare in these circumstances please post about it on this forum and we will help you to win your appeal.

 

[Rich McLean]

In the interest of accuracy, it's worth reading our Fares and Ticketing guide, section 10 post on when Penalty Fares can be issued. They can't, for example, be issued for not adhereing to a route restriction on your ticket (the excess is payable) or for using an off peak ticket at peak times (again, an excess is payable).

If you are issued a Penalty Fare in these circumstances please post about it on this forum and we will help you to win your appeal.

My bad, I made a mistake. I have edited it so that it is not misleading.

 

[cleggy145]

It was under bye law number 18(1) Nader section 219 of the transport act, the letter I signed was just an acknowledgement of the offence I can't remember exactly what it said. Yeah it's a first time offence that's why I was shocked at the way it has been dealt with.

I didn't purchase a ticket as I was in a rush I had been writing my dissertation in the library at the time and had to meet my gfs parents for a meal and I was running late, no excuse I know.

 

[cleggy145]

A Penalty Fare is a charge issued to anyone travelling without a valid ticket. To avoid a Penalty Fare, we encourage you to purchase your travel tickets before embarking on your journey. In response to feedback, you can be assured that we are making every effort to eliminate fare evasion throughout our services. Fare evasion costs the rail industry £200 million a year, so it is important to have an effective Penalty Fare scheme in place.

This is taken straight from East Midlands trains website, where have I not qualified for this punishment? From this it states to purchase a ticket before travel, meaning that people without a ticket should be issued with this, surely?

 

[Stigy]

In the interest of accuracy, it's worth reading our Fares and Ticketing guide, section 10 post on when Penalty Fares can be issued. They can't, for example, be issued for not adhereing to a route restriction on your ticket (the excess is payable) or for using an off peak ticket at peak times (again, an excess is payable).

If you are issued a Penalty Fare in these circumstances please post about it on this forum and we will help you to win your appeal.

I also believe that a lot, if not all, EMT routes don't have a Penalty Fare scheme in place...Unless I'm mistaken?

Assuming it's a Byelaw offence they're using to prosecute, it's quite an easy one to prove, as no intent to avoid payment needs to be evidenced by EMT. I advise you offer to meet their reasonable admin costs to remain out of court and apologise etc. EMT don't have to accept, but it's in your interest to ask the question.

 

[yorkie]

I also believe that a lot, if not all, EMT routes don't have a Penalty Fare scheme in place...Unless I'm mistaken?

The EMT website is, incredibly misleading. Which, given their track record, is not at all surprising.

EMTs PF scheme is basically the core main line route, from Wellingbrough - Sheffield (via both Derby/Nottingham, but excluding Langley Mill, and while Corby is included, other stations off the main line are not). The southern part of the route is covered by FCCs scheme.

Penalty Fares cannot be charged for a route restriction, or a time restricted ticket used at a barred time, hence SickyNicky's correction. Nor can Penalty Fares be issued for a journey between Sheffield & Meadowhall as Meadowhall is NOT a penalty fare station.

Assuming it's a Byelaw offence they're using to prosecute, it's quite an easy one to prove, as no intent to avoid payment needs to be evidenced by EMT. I advise you offer to meet their reasonable admin costs to remain out of court and apologise etc. EMT don't have to accept, but it's in your interest to ask the question.

Agreed

 

[tbtc]

Whilst EMT run services through Meadowhall (and "operate" Sheffield Midland), I thought that these were only the St Pancras - Leeds (and Scarborough) services that don't stop there? Maybe I'm forgetting some services, but are you sure it was EMT?

(since we are debating the EMT terms/ conditions here, rather than Northern/ TPE)

 

[yorkie]

This is taken straight from East Midlands trains website, where have I not qualified for this punishment?

You would 'qualify' for a higher than normal fare, called a Penalty Fare, if you were travelling within a Penalty Fare scheme on a Penalty Fare train, and if caught by an authorised collector.

I am not sure which EMT service you caught, as EMT do not appear to operate any trains between Sheffield & Meadowhall in the current timetable.

Perhaps you caught a Northern or TPE train.

Penalty Fares are not charged on any Northern or TPE service, nor are they applicable on any operator for a journey between Sheffield & Meadowhall.

From this it states to purchase a ticket before travel, meaning that people without a ticket should be issued with this, surely?

Not necessarily.

Also what annoys me now is that this is the only time I have ever seen these officers at this station and I travel through at least twice a week.

It's not the only time they've been at Meadowhall, I am not quite sure how it is annoying that you've only encountered them once though.

 

[ainsworth74]

Whilst EMT run services through Meadowhall (and "operate" Sheffield Midland), I thought that these were only the St Pancras - Leeds (and Scarborough) services that don't stop there? Maybe I'm forgetting some services, but are you sure it was EMT?

It is not unknown for EMT to run revenue blockades on Meadowhall station.

 

[bb21]

I also believe that EMT don't run any service to Meadowhall at the moment as the only ones that go beyond Sheffield are the HSTs to Leeds for Neville Hill depot or the occasional Doncaster/York/Scarborough runs.

EMT do have reciprocal agreements with Northern on revenue inspections AFAIK, however I am not sure whether that applies to TPE.

@OP. Do you remember which train you caught?

 

[cleggy145]

I have double checked and it is definitely East Midlands trains, if I remember correctly it was a Sheffield to huddersfield train, or it could have possibly been a Sheffield to Leeds train. It was the 30th of may I got caught.

I have a friend who has had a similar experience with them, they wrote an angry letter that they were a student and a criminal record would ruin a career and they dropped the case and issued a 65£ fine, i think I will keep my response apologetic though.

 

[island]

With respect, I don't think much turns on the train operating company used, beyond the question of whether that company has an express settlement process established.

 

[bb21]

I have double checked and it is definitely East Midlands trains, if I remember correctly it was a Sheffield to huddersfield train, or it could have possibly been a Sheffield to Leeds train. It was the 30th of may I got caught.

EMT don't operate between Sheffield and Huddersfield. Only Northern do currently, and some TPE services did on selected Sundays earlier this year due to engineering works but not in May iirc. If you were caught off a Huddersfield service then I am 99% sure that it was a Northern service, and EMT have reciprocal agreements with Northern on revenue protection AFAIK.

None of the EMT Sheffield to Leeds services call at Meadowhall. They are all HSTs and I don't know of any HSTs to call there.

With respect, I don't think much turns on the train operating company used, beyond the question of whether that company has an express settlement process established.

True. If it goes to the prosecution stage then it might not matter that much.

 

[sheff1]

Why did you not purchase a ticket before travelling,like everyone else does?

On virtually every train I have used between Sheffield and Meadowhall one or more people have bought a ticket on board. On many trains there are no checks on this section.

Make of that what you will.

 

[cleggy145]

I've read through my documents and I was caught at 16.46 I had caught the 16.36 Sheffield to huddersfield train, how can emt do this if I was not travelling on their service like bb21 has said?

 

[dosxuk]

There's almost always someone / a couple / a family who're desperate for the toilet on the whole of that run too. Once saw four adults cram themselves into a pacer toilet.

 

[bb21]

I've read through my documents and I was caught at 16.46 I had caught the 16.36 Sheffield to huddersfield train, how can emt do this if I was not travelling on their service like bb21 has said?

Great. So we have established that you travelled on a Northern service.

As I said before, I believe that Northern and EMT have reciprocal agreements on revenue protection which means that EMT are allowed to do revenue checks on Northern passengers, so I don't really see anything wrong on that front.

It probably is a bit harsh given your circumstances as I know that plenty of people buy onboard in Northern-land. Most of them don't know any better and it has been habitual for them, however it would appear that Northern have started to clamp down on this (not that you can tell by the action of their guards) and the bottom line is that you are required by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage to have a valid ticket before boarding if you started at a station with ticket-purchasing facilities.

 

[tbtc]

On virtually every train I have used between Sheffield and Meadowhall one or more people have bought a ticket on board. On many trains there are no checks on this section

Ticket checks are really infrequent on that section of line - which just encourages more fare evasion/ avoidance

It is not unknown for EMT to run revenue blockades on Meadowhall station.

That surprised me - though I don't tend to pay much attention of the uniform of the people doing ticket checks (usually on the "Barnsley" platforms at Meadowhall).

Maybe instead of those "TOCs who run stations that they don't stop at" threads (which we have periodically - e.g. XC at Burton) we could have "TOCs who do revenue blocks at stations that they don't serve"?

With respect, I don't think much turns on the train operating company used, beyond the question of whether that company has an express settlement process established.

Fair enough - I just didn't want people getting into arguments about wording on the EMT website in case this was nothing to do with EMT.

 

[34D]

Do the letter and court summons state EMT, though? If so, I don't see how they can prosecute for using a Northern Train?

Surely they should pass the report to Northerns team in bradford?

Pointless and useless supermarket analogy: would tesco prosecute for a theft that took place in asda?

 

[yorkie]

Do the letter and court summons state EMT, though? If so, I don't see how they can prosecute for using a Northern Train?

They can, as they have an agreement in place.

Surely they should pass the report to Northerns team in bradford?

Depends what you mean by "should". I agree they should from a 'common sense' line of argument, but that isn't going to help the OP!

Pointless and useless supermarket analogy: would tesco prosecute for a theft that took place in asda?

No, as they don't have an agreement in place and we don't have an Association of Supermarket Operating Companies etc, etc...

 

[GadgetMan]

Do the letter and court summons state EMT, though? If so, I don't see how they can prosecute for using a Northern Train?

Surely they should pass the report to Northerns team in bradford?

Pointless and useless supermarket analogy: would tesco prosecute for a theft that took place in asda?

Funny how when it's convenient you'd expect TOC B station staff to look after you if you have a Ticket for TOC A train that is cancelled. But when it comes to revenue protection all of a sudden it's not ok.

OP ignored ticket purchasing facilities before commencing journey and got caught out. Don't see why it matters what uniform the RPIs were wearing.

Would the OP have paid if the barrier staff weren't there? I'm 99.9% certain the answer is no.

 

[maniacmartin]

I believe that anyone can bring a criminal prosecution. Tesco could prosecute for a theft at Asda if they wanted to, not that they'd gain much by doing so.

 

[185]

Specifically in relation to this journey, for the last three years EMT have had major issues with shortstaffing, sickness and understaffing GPR cover at Sheffield and Chesterfield. Queues have often stretched across the concourses.

Certainly no excuse to have a free ride, but from the point of view of staff doing revenue, having an adequate opportunity to buy tickets better justifies penalising those passengers caught without.

 

[Haywain]

Specifically in relation to this journey, for the last three years EMT have had major issues with shortstaffing, sickness and understaffing GPR cover at Sheffield and Chesterfield. Queues have often stretched across the concourses.

Certainly no excuse to have a free ride, but from the point of view of staff doing revenue, having an adequate opportunity to buy tickets better justifies penalising those passengers caught without.

Are there cash ticket vending machines at Sheffield? The OP stated they had the correct change in their pocket for the ticket, so that would further limit the excuses for not buying before travel.

 

[tbtc]

OP ignored ticket purchasing facilities before commencing journey and got caught out. Don't see why it matters what uniform the RPIs were wearing

Oh, I agree - I only raised the issue as (not realising that EMT do "revenue protection" at a station their trains have never stopped at) I wondered whether the OP had got confused about uniforms and didn't want people worrying about the wording on the EMT website if this was nothing to do with EMT.

I've been corrected though.

 

[michael769]

I believe that anyone can bring a criminal prosecution. Tesco could prosecute for a theft at Asda if they wanted to, not that they'd gain much by doing so.

Indeed they can all that is required is that the prosecution has enough evidence to convince the beak that there is a case to answer.

 

[dosxuk]

Are there cash ticket vending machines at Sheffield?

Yes, at least three.