Court Summons

[Throwawayy]

Hello, im looking for some advice regarding a recent accidental evasion that has led to this point. So to give a quick rundown of the events that have lead up to this situation.

I purchased an open return ticket on the 10th November. Got my ticket come through on the app, the app clearly shows open ticket (however, i didnt realise this when speaking to the ticket officer on the train)

It was a little strange because typically i just use the pdf for my tickets rather than the app and when i downloaded the ticket which clearly had the file name of "nov15_openreturn" but it wouldnt open.

I managed to get it work by adding it to my google account so i thought fantastic, all sorted and the ticket opened fine.

Fast forward to coming home, the ticket guy coming round, scans my ticket, it rejects. Ticket actually invalid. I redownloaded the return pdf which now says "nov16_openreturn" but couldnt open it and the guy was having none of it.

He then said to me that I'd get a letter with the fine as i didnt have any money on me at the time to which he told me to just make sure i pay the fine of the single+ £20 as soon as the letter comes through.

Well i got the letter today, which, i might add says they sent it on the 26th and its only just reached me. Expecting to just have a fine, i was taken aback by the demanding of defending myself in court.

Just straight to court, nothing like the guy told me. The letter also says its not possible to settle out of court for whatever reason and this just doesnt seem right surely?

I know i should have double checked my ticket so that part is definitely on me but the fact that everything from trainline says openreturn on it, like most people im going to just trust it.

Is there anything i can really do to avoid this farce? I will say as well, i have screenshots of all tickets downloaded and the app that still shows the tickets as open returns. I also have screenshots of chats before my travel saying that im buying an open return including screenshots of it being done.

Thank you in advance!

 

[AlterEgo]

This sounds like a complex one. Could you let us know some more details? To help, we need to know:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

 

[Throwawayy]

This sounds like a complex one. Could you let us know some more details? To help, we need to know:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

Of course

It was Downham Market to Peterborough changing at Ely, however, ticket was checked on the Downham train, after the incident, I immediately purchased a new single on the app for the Ely - Peterborough part (i know i said i had no money on me, card details are just saved to my app, i really didnt have anything on me)

I present the ticket, the ticket I had seen later was for a "Day Return" of course, that day had passed and not the Open Return as it was labelled everywhere else.

As previously mentioned, we had a general chat about what would happen to follow up, in regards to receiving the letter with the fine itself. He issued me a witness statement slip and also read me my rights.

Unfortunately i dont currently have the statement with me at present, but can provide that information in a few days if it is an important bit of info required for any help.

Really, i just want to settle this out of court, preferably to pay the fine i was originally told I'd be receiving and not having to defend myself in front of s court. I was expecting a letter with a fine and theyve jumped straight to court. Ive never had any issues with the law/ticket evasion before, i wasnt being difficult during the "interview" so im really not sure how theyve come to this conclusion!

I also greatly appreciate the help

 

[pedr]

It would probably help to say which of the following you've received:

• A letter from a train company saying they intend to prosecute
• A Single Justice Procedure notice saying you are being charged with a Railways Byelaws offence and asking whether you want to plead guilty by post or have a court hearing
• A summons in relation to an offence contrary to the Regulation of Railways Act 1889

These are quite different things and require different responses.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

From my days in revenue Protection from what I’ve read it appears to me that he saw it as a “no money no ticket” situation. As at the time you (for some reason even if accidental ) you didn’t have a valid ticket or means to purchase one which we would straight away report to prosecutions as without money or valid ticket there’s intent to avoid paying your fare. Definitely an interesting one

 

[30907]

The situation is complicated by the fact that Anytime fares for that journey are valid one day only. It is unfortunate that trainline use the term Open Return at all.

 

[pelli]

I know i should have double checked my ticket so that part is definitely on me but the fact that everything from trainline says openreturn on it, like most people im going to just trust it.

Is there anything i can really do to avoid this farce? I will say as well, i have screenshots of all tickets downloaded and the app that still shows the tickets as open returns. I also have screenshots of chats before my travel saying that im buying an open return including screenshots of it being done.

I'm afraid that The Railway (by which I mean almost all Train Operating Companies' apps) have decided that nowadays "Open Return" just means return on an unspecified train, whether it's the same day or within a month.

I tried a test booking in the Trainline app, asking for an open return from Peterborough to Downham Market, and the only ticket it offered was an Anytime Day Return. Is this the ticket you bought? Its name is shown clearly when you select it (see attachment), but maybe you didn't read the ticket name at all since it was the only option in the list.

When viewing the ticket in the app, "open return" is indeed shown next to the date (which, again, The Railway has decided just means that the journey does not have a specific return itinerary), although "Anytime Day Return" is shown further below as the specific ticket type (see attachment).

When downloading the PDF from the link in the Trainline email, the filenames would be "DownhamMarket_15_Nov_2021.PDF" (if that's the date of the outbound ticket) and "Peterborough_OpenReturnBy_15_Nov_2021.PDF" (i.e. the same date as the outbound) so again if your mind is set on the ticket being a period return and maybe the date isn't visible then it's easy to miss that the filename actually says that the ticket must be used to return the same day. I'm surprised to hear that the date in the filename changed when you tried to download it again, that sounds very odd... (And I also think it's very odd of Trainline to not just/also attach the PDF to the email, where as a user I would be more confident that I will be able to access it again if I lose it.)

 

[tornado]

A lot of these problems would be solved if TOCs didn't insist on using PDF which is entirely the wrong format for train tickets. It's designed to be printed, not for showing on phones. I bet a vanishingly small number of people rush to their printer just for a hard copy of a train ticket these days.

Google Wallet, Applet Wallet, and .pkpass are far more robust and less prone to user error. They don't disappear if you forget to login to your favourite TOC account, or if you don't have a network connection, either.

 

[Haywain]

A lot of these problems would be solved if TOCs didn't insist on using PDF which is entirely the wrong format for train tickets. It's designed to be printed, not for showing on phones. I bet a vanishingly small number of people rush to their printer just for a hard copy of a train ticket these days.

Google Wallet, Applet Wallet, and .pkpass are far more robust and less prone to user error. They don't disappear if you forget to login to your favourite TOC account, or if you don't have a network connection, either.

eTickets are generally sent as a pdf but in many cases are also available in other forms. And, according to many participants of this forum, it is vitally important to be able to print them out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Dec 2021 ==

I'm afraid that The Railway (by which I mean almost all Train Operating Companies' apps) have decided that nowadays "Open Return" just means return on an unspecified train, whether it's the same day or within a month.

For many years I have encountered very significant numbers of people who ask for an open return when they buy tickets even if they intend to return the same day. The problem is not "the railway" as you put it but particularly Trainline who are mixing day an period tickets in their splitting, and failing to make clear that they are doing so.

 

[pelli]

For many years I have encountered very significant numbers of people who ask for an open return when they buy tickets even if they intend to return the same day. The problem is not "the railway" as you put it but particularly Trainline who are mixing day an period tickets in their splitting, and failing to make clear that they are doing so.

My point is that it's not just Trainline using the term "open return" to include day returns as well, but also other TOCs, and you're supporting this by confirming that the general public does this too. This was as a response to the passages I quoted from the OP where they point out that Trainline is using the phrase "open return" incorrectly (in their view).

I absolutely agree that Trainline's displaying of SplitSave tickets is insufficiently clear. To be picky, the SplitSave problem is not just when the SplitSave contains a mixture of day and period returns, but in fact any time that the SplitSave contains a day return, as it will be offered as the "cheapest" option at the top of the list when the user, who asked for an "open return", might not be expecting to have to read the line below the "SplitSave"/"Cheapest" headline to find out that the ticket is not valid for a whole month (see attachment, which I also recently posted in another thread).

However, it's not clear in this thread whether the OP had a split ticket at all (I couldn't get Trainline or Trainsplit to offer any splits for Peterborough to Downham Market), or whether they just missed all the instances of the words "day return" while assigning an incorrect (but reasonable, from a historical standpoint) meaning to all the instances of the words "open return" that they saw.

The best thing The Railway could do to fix this is to decide that in order to be accredited a ticket seller must not offer an "Open return" search option, but may instead offer two separate options "Open return (day)" and "Open return (month)", so that the two can never be mixed up. (And obviously "Open return (day)" should include period returns, as they are valid to return the same day and may sometimes be cheaper, or simply exist when day returns don't.)

 

[RPI]

Another victim of the trainline "open return", that isn't actually an "open return"

 

[Titfield]

I used to work for a coach operator many years ago (selling tickets face to face) and the policy was that an open return meant the passenger could come back any day or any time within a period of time. We were always so careful to ascertain what the passenger really wanted so there could be no doubt they purchased the right ticket. From memory national express used the expressions single, day return and period return. Complications arose as they tried to segment the market introducing economy returns valid on certain days only.

 

[najaB]

Another victim of the trainline "open return", that isn't actually an "open return"

It is an open return - it is a return ticket that allows the passenger to use any train for which it is valid.

Note that "Open return" doesn't appear as a ticket type:

From: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Train_Tickets.aspx

 

[AlterEgo]

It is an open return - it is a return ticket that allows the passenger to use any train for which it is valid.

Note that "Open return" doesn't appear as a ticket type:
View attachment 106528
From: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Train_Tickets.aspx

It’s very sharp practice IMO. “Open Return” used to be an actual ticket type of course.

 

[RPI]

It is an open return - it is a return ticket that allows the passenger to use any train for which it is valid.

Note that "Open return" doesn't appear as a ticket type:
View attachment 106528
From: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Train_Tickets.aspx

Maybe, but what would the man on a Croydon Omnibus think?

I'm one that quite often defends the railways and how they go about revenue protection, but this "open return" issue is allowing a lot of genuine passengers to inadvertently fall the wrong side of the rules and getting stung, not great at a time when we need to encourage more passengers to come back to rail.

 

[mikeg]

I'm wondering what the not valid message was. I have had the same experience re this. It was because the decryption keys on the guard's ticket machine had not been kept up to date. @Wallsendmag kindly checked the e ticket for me and it was valid. Does the op still have the e ticket shewn to the RPI? Perhaps someone on here could scan it without clipping it?
Just a note to the OP if you do have it send it to the relevant person (not me) via pm, don't post it on this thread.
I have also never had problems displaying the .pdf version of my e tickets, on a variety of GB operators.

I see it was a day return issued for a different day so my reasoning would be superfluous however. I do though wonder whether, though it would not absolve the OP of a byelaws offence if it could be worth taking this up with the sheepline.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can we please stick to posts that actually give the original poster advice for their situation.

thanks