Court Case- Northern Rail

[vbomb1986]

Hi

A brief overview of my case

'I was travelling to a clients from Stockport to Manchester on a peak train at approximately 8.15am in March. I purchased a ticket from the machine at Stockport paying cash and used this to get through the guarded barrier at Stockport. When I got to Manchester I showed my ticket to the staff though I was informed it was yesterdays ticket I had used and when looking I could not find todays ticket I had purchased (lost between Stockport and Manchester). I was asked to stand to one side whilst they collected details etc.

I then received a letter from Northern Rail which I replied to immediately and heard no response until I received a court summons last Tuesday - with the case being today at 10am.

Whilst looking through the summons, Northern Rail had said they had sent me a penalty notice(I never received) which I had ignored and had various witness statements meaning my chances of winning were very small.

I therefore sent the form back with a written guilty plea and await my fine through the post.'

Ok so the reason for the post -

Today after looking through my summons again I noticed that they were pursuing me for a £2.10 fare, on the witness statement it says that they had asked me how much I had paid and I had said about 3.80. This obviously looks very different to the 2.10 they are going for.

I knew the 2.10 figure is incorrect as it is extremely low for a peak fare and I make the journey quite a lot through work so I checked on the national rail website and it is 3.40, will this make any difference to me that they have got this wrong? And the 2.10 is mentioned quite a lot through the witness statements, summons etc? Is it worth an appeal?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Stigy]

Hi,

Chances are they have gone for the standard fare as opposed to the peak time fare. When writing their report the staff member probably wrote down the standard anytime fare, which is what they'll usually seek to recover in court.

 

[Anvil1984]

£2.10 is the Anytime day single price for a Virgin Trains only ticket

 

[cuccir]

It helps to be clear in terminology here (eg there is no such thing as a 'peak time fare').

£2.10 is the price of an Anytime Day Single fare. The reason for a discrepancy between what you would expect to pay would be that you might usually buy a return; in this instance, however, they've no evidence that you would have traveled on the return leg without buying a ticket, hence chasing you for the Single fare.

Even if there were some error in the amount, I wouldn't expect this technicality to affect your prosecution.

What legislation does your Summons mention? Depending on the legislation that they are attempting to prosecute you under, your best actions are possibly different.
--
Edit: It is a little odd that they're chasing you for the fare priced 'Virgin Trains only'. However, I still don't think that the fact that they are demanding payment for a fare that is cheaper than necessary would effect your prosecution!

 

[soil]

Can you contact their prosecution team and get the case dropped, subject to payment of their costs?

This is the most sensible way to deal with these matters.

 

[Llanigraham]

Can you contact their prosecution team and get the case dropped, subject to payment of their costs?

This is the most sensible way to deal with these matters.

Bit too late, if this part of his opening post is correct:

I then received a letter from Northern Rail which I replied to immediately and heard no response until I received a court summons last Tuesday - with the case being today at 10am.

To the OP,
Did you attend Court?

 

[soil]

Oh yes I see that.

So the court case has been and gone, the OP has pleaded guilty, and has been fined in his absence (presumably).

Seems like this is done + dusted, and arguing about the correct fare or whatever is completely and utterly pointless at this point. Just move on.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Is it worth an appeal?

Is there any new evidence which might demonstrate that the Offence was not committed (whichever Offence it was, presumably the Byelaw Offence of failing to produce a valid ticket when requested) ? No.

Was there an error of Law? No.

Was there an error of process which led to an injustice? No.

It is not worth an appeal.

 

[vbomb1986]

Thanks for all your responses.

No I didn't attend court as I only received the summons Tuesday, so didn't have enough time to prepare/book off work so sent in a early plea of guilty in so I didn't need to be there.

One of the main points of the witness statement is that when I was asked how much the fare I paid was I said 'about 3.60' and when compared with the 2.10 they are putting down it looks far off. Though I couldn't have been travelling on a virgin only train as I came from the escalator at Piccadilly and no virgin trains pull into the platforms linked with this.

Having spoken to the court today they have said the case was heard in my absence (meaning they didn't receive my early plea through the post) which is quite frustrating.

Does anyone know if there is a timeframe you should receive a summons by before trial? The summons is dated 26/07/13 though the witness statement attached to it is dated 01/10/13 meaning it was only sent out in the last two weeks hence giving me so little time.

The court has decided that I have to pay - 2.10 fare, 100 costs, 200 fine and 20 victim.

I am in two minds whether to appeal but will probably just put the matter to bed and move on.

 

[34D]

and had various witness statements meaning my chances of winning were very small.

Not the case at all.

I therefore sent the form back with a written guilty plea and await my fine through the post.'

Not sure whether DaveNewcastle agrees or not, but I would suggest that this is rarely worth doing.

For starters, if you are resigned to your guilt, it is generally worth seeking an Out of Court Settlement.

If that isn't possible it is always worth attending to plead mitigation, and to explain your circumstances. Did you fill in a "means" form? I would be interested to know what the fine is, once papers arrive

 

[Stigy]

It helps to be clear in terminology here (eg there is no such thing as a 'peak time fare').

£2.10 is the price of an Anytime Day Single fare. The reason for a discrepancy between what you would expect to pay would be that you might usually buy a return; in this instance, however, they've no evidence that you would have traveled on the return leg without buying a ticket, hence chasing you for the Single fare.

Im not familiar with the route in question, but was taking it that the OP had bought a ticket usually at this time, and it was priced higher, much like it would be travelling in to London before 0930hrs.

 

[swt_passenger]

... I would be interested to know what the fine is, once papers arrive

It'll be as he put in the above post #9, he's already had the info:

"2.10 fare, 100 costs, 200 fine and 20 victim"

 

[island]

I would be interested to know what the fine is, once papers arrive

No need to wait...

The court has decided that I have to pay - 2.10 fare, 100 costs, 200 fine and 20 victim.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Does anyone know if there is a timeframe you should receive a summons by before trial? The summons is dated 26/07/13 though the witness statement attached to it is dated 01/10/13 meaning it was only sent out in the last two weeks hence giving me so little time.

Two weeks is 'reasonable'. If you required more time you would have been at liberty to request more time - a request which would not be unreasonably refused. But you didn't.

I expect that something did go wrong with your post, but that there was no injustice as a consequence (i.e. you did have an opportunity to contact the Court and request more time).

I am in two minds whether to appeal but will probably just put the matter to bed and move on.

If the Offence had not been committed, then you would be right to consider an Appeal. My advice remains as above in post #8 : It is not worth an Appeal.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I agree with DaveNewcastle, it isn't worth appealing


In reality a Court will sometimes accept 7 days is good service of a summons, but as Dave says, 14 days is usually recommended and is a reasonable notice.

It seems that the prosecution have laid a charge of 'failing to show a ticket when asked'. (Byelaw 18.2)

You have pleaded 'Guilty' to that charge.

The prosecutor has applied for compensation of the cheapest single fare that could have been available to you for the journey that you made without ticket between Stockport & Manchester had you paid before boarding any train and this has been awarded by the Court.

The fact that the fare would have been valid only on a Virgin service is irrelevant, if Northern made a mistake in quoting a lower fare they get paid less than they should have.

Sorry if it sounds unsympathetic, but an Appeal based on 'the prosecutor and the Court ordered me to pay less than they should have' has no merit.