Counting Mileposts

[Andy873]

Hi and thanks for your replies on the other topics,

There is a similar thread about mileposts, and it is very interesting but this one is very specific so I thought it deserved a different thread.

I've kept looking at John Marshall's gradient profile of my old line (very sorry it's this one again!) and there was something about it I couldn't put my finger on, and then I spotted it.

John Marshall counts the mileposts from the western end (GH junction is the zero point) and Padiham junction (Rose Grove west box) is MP9. However, my L&Y society book count in the other direction.

Next, I read about the Midland railway and it mentions the OS map sheets have the MP numbers listed. When I looked at two OS sheets (one at the western end & one at the eastern end) they are indeed numbered from Padiham junction i.e. the same as my L&Y book. One says on the OS sheet MP Padiham Junction 5 and the other MP Padiham Junction 8.

Questions please:

Who's correct here?
Did the OS get the numbers from the L&Y railway?

Some railway companies counted from say their HQ outwards, if so going east the MP's here should be as John Marshall labelled them?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Senex]

Interesting. An L&Y company gradient diagram sheet from the 1890s I have measures from the west, but the 25" OS maps from the start of that decade shew the mileposts from the east, from Padiham Junction. An L&Y 1912 Sectional Appendix I have doesn't help.

However, the LMS Central Division Sectional Appendix of March 1937 has two highly-relevant comments in its table for the line in referring to speed restrictions: "Over curves adjacent to and through Padiham station, 1¼ to 1½ mile posts" and "Over curve at and adjoining Martholme Viaduct (Bridge No. 30), 3¾ to 4½ mile posts". That does seem to confirm that (at least by that date) the zero-point was at the eastern end.

 

[randyrippley]

did the LMS re-post the line following grouping?

 

[Andy873]

However, the LMS Central Division Sectional Appendix of March 1937 has two highly-relevant comments in its table for the line in referring to speed restrictions: "Over curves adjacent to and through Padiham station, 1¼ to 1½ mile posts" and "Over curve at and adjoining Martholme Viaduct (Bridge No. 30), 3¾ to 4½ mile posts". That does seem to confirm that (at least by that date) the zero-point was at the eastern end.

Glad you told me about that, the BR 1960 one says exactly the same.

did the LMS re-post the line following grouping?

A great question!

On probability I would guess no based on what both sectional appendix's state and given the old OS maps show the MP's counted from the eastern end.

Based on what you have both told me and spending time thinking about it logically I think this is what happened:

Firstly, the short eastern end (Padiham to Rose Grove) was straight forward to build. It opened a good 2 years before the rest of the line. The section from Great Harwood eastwards towards the river Calder / Padiham was beset with problems, 2 miles of embankments were needed which either kept subsiding, slipping, or on one major occasion part was washed away and took 6 months to repair.

Because the Padiham to Rose Grove section opened (to passengers) one year before the rest of the line the L&Y had to lay mileposts on that section, hence Padiham junction being the zero point.

During it's operational life, the L&Y, LMS and BR all called it the Padiham branch.

I think the continued delays / problems building the Great Harwood section made the name stick with the general public hence the OS maps calling it the "Great Harwood Loop" and yet showing the MP's from Padiham junction.

Once the whole line was completed I just think the L&Y kept on numbering onwards from Padiham westward - I can't prove it, but when you add all this up I think it sounds logical?

I do think however the L&Y were going to use the western end as the zero point hence John Marshall gradient profile based on original engineering drawings.

 

[Senex]

I think that sounds entirely convincing for how the zero-point came to be the eastern end.

As for what John Marshall says and what appears on my gradient diagrams, I wonder if shewing the line from the western end comes from the fact that when the line was fully in service the down direction was from the west to the east and it was standard L&Y practice to shew down first. I'll need to check on the diagrams again and see if that theory works for other lines.

 

[Andy873]

As for what John Marshall says and what appears on my gradient diagrams, I wonder if shewing the line from the western end comes from the fact that when the line was fully in service the down direction was from the west to the east and it was standard L&Y practice to shew down first. I'll need to check on the diagrams again and see if that theory works for other lines.

Thanks, anything you can find I would be very grateful for.

I remember walking the track bed around 1981 / 2, I came across a quarter milepost just outside Great Harwood (western end). I can't remember what it measured but I think (but could be wrong) it had L&Y on it.

 

[Bevan Price]

You may find something of interest here:

RailRef LY

RailRef information for company line LY, Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

www.s-r-s.org.uk

NLC mileages

Engineer's Line References: NLC

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

PRG mileages

Engineer's Line References: PRG

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

FHR5 mileages

Engineer's Line References: FHR5

www.railwaycodes.org.uk

 

[Andy873]

You may find something of interest here:

That's fantastic work Bevan you've done for me, many many thanks!

I've asked a couple of guys who are very interested in signalling and they all agree (as do the links provided) that Rose Grove West was indeed the zero point for the MP's.

It does beg another question though:

The links, OS sheets circa 1900, and the lines around East Lancashire line all start their mile counts from Manchester Victoria - no surprise because that was the HQ for the L&Y railway....

So why does my old branch line not do the same? which ever way you count them they are not listed as "x" miles from Manchester?

 

[Bevan Price]

That's fantastic work Bevan you've done for me, many many thanks!

I've asked a couple of guys who are very interested in signalling and they all agree (as do the links provided) that Rose Grove West was indeed the zero point for the MP's.

It does beg another question though:

The links, OS sheets circa 1900, and the lines around East Lancashire line all start their mile counts from Manchester Victoria - no surprise because that was the HQ for the L&Y railway....

So why does my old branch line not do the same? which ever way you count them they are not listed as "x" miles from Manchester?

Cannot answer definitively, but on some railways, if access to a line involved a reversal**, then a new mileage series starting at zero was started at the junction points.

** - Reversal relative to the increasing value of a mileage series.

Re-posting of mileage series also occurs sometimes. I think that Blackburn towards Burnley was once posted from Manchester Victoria via Blackburn, with a reversal ar Rose Grove West to access the line to Padiham, etc. At some stage - possibly after closure of the connection from the Liverpool Exchange line to Lostock Hall Jn - a new zero point for Preston to Blackburn & East Lancs was established at Farington Curve Jn.

 

[Andy873]

Cannot answer definitively, but on some railways, if access to a line involved a reversal**, then a new mileage series starting at zero was started at the junction points.

** - Reversal relative to the increasing value of a mileage series.

Re-posting of mileage series also occurs sometimes. I think that Blackburn towards Burnley was once posted from Manchester Victoria via Blackburn, with a reversal ar Rose Grove West to access the line to Padiham, etc. At some stage - possibly after closure of the connection from the Liverpool Exchange line to Lostock Hall Jn - a new zero point for Preston to Blackburn & East Lancs was established at Farington Curve Jn.

Interesting...

The short section (2 miles) from Rose Grove station to Padiham opened 2 years before the rest of the line did. My book tells me even on the first passenger train, some people had tickets to Manchester. So either at change at Rose Grove or a reversal needed, and the same coming back.

I also wonder if the L&Y treated the line as some sort of "internal line of the East Lancs one" i.e. no need to count from Manchester - just another theory.