Counties in the UK.

[Gareth]

Greenback has told us where he lives, as many still prefer the older county names. One example but outside of Wales; many living on the Wirral,which was formerly Cheshire, did not like the imposed Merseyside name or its postcodes. Eventually, after pressure, all their postcodes were changed from L (Liverpool) to CH (Chester)

Lol, I knew this one would come up. Always happy to bust the myth...

For a start, postcodes are nothing to do with counties. Merseyside doesn't begin with 'L' and most of Cheshire, whether the modern incarnation or the larger traditional one, isn't in the CH postal area; as our most noted Cheshire gentleman, Paul Sidorczuk will attest to.

The letter on your postcode denotes the main head sorting office. 'L' meant the now defunct Liverpool sorting office on Copperas Hill in the city centre. 'CH' means the one in Chester. The number following it is the local sorting office that comes under the main one. It's purely an administrative device that helps the Royal Mail know which location to send its letters for sorting.

The Wirral/CH thing was the result of a fairly long term campaign by the Royal Mail to close the Liverpool sorting office. The Wirral mail would go via Chester whilst the rest of the 'L' would be taken over by Warrington. It took many years due to local political opposition and workers' unions. Eventually, they got their way and hiving off the Wirral to come under Chester sorting office was the first phase. The 'L' couldn't be kept as that would mean the mail still being sent to Liverpool; therefore the wrong head office. As the numbers used on the Wirral were on the high side and there were no CH equivalents, it was easy to just change L41 to CH41 etc.

A while passed, once more due to local political opposition and unions but the Royal Mail finally closed the Liverpool office only a few years ago. The 'L' designation was kept rather than changing to WA, as this would involve changing the numbers too i.e. as there was already a WA8, L8 would have to be WA[some high number]. That would've been controversial but also unnecessary. Anything with either an 'L' or 'WA' on simply goes via Warrington now.

Some snobby types on the peninsula may have been pleased; not so much because of any particular affinity with Cheshire so much as the belief that their car insurance premiums would go down, or even that their property would rise in value. The former patently hasn't happened and I see little evidence for the latter either. Even so, the idea that some people over the water were so upset about having an 'L' postcode that Royal Mail went out of their way to totally overhaul their sorting methods is, when you think about it, rather far fetched; absurd even.
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I doubt that anyone alive has ever lived in Sussex, as the county was divided into East and West Sussex in 1889.

You're confusing administrative county with 'actual' county. Until 1974, Sussex was indeed considered a single county, even if it had two county councils. It had been since antiquity. Liverpool was never under Lancashire County Council but up until 1974, had also been considered a part of Lancashire since its establishment in 1207.

 

[TheEdge]

Telford and Wrekin, no matter how you act you are still a part of Shropshire, and don't forget it!

 

[randyrippley]

FWIW, Bristol was a "County Corporate", and later a "County Borough", and not an administrative county.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_corporate
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_borough

effectively these were towns which weren't administrative counties, but were independent and self-governing. There were quite a number

 

[Requeststop]

You'll be getting someone (not me) saying Cornwall is a duchy rather than a county. Someone else (probably the same person) will then say that Cornwall has never been a part of England. Believe me, when there's not much news to report the letters pages of Cornish newspapers get filled with all this stuff.

Hope you have your passport ready next time you cross the Tamar into Cornwall.

By the way The Isles of Scilly, or Scilly but never the Scilly Isles, are not part of Cornwall and have their own council. It has been separate from Cornwall since 1888.

 

[Trog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_counties_of_England

Typically English that Yorkshire appears to be divided into four parts one of which is the East Riding, when the word riding means a third.

 

[meridian2]

You've now got a Yorkshire sign at the old boundary, what more do you want?

Obviously the modern counties make more administrative sense. It would be quite illogical for Greenfield, Uppermill etc. to be administered from somewhere in Yorkshire, separated by miles of empty moorland, rather than the urban area it is very close to.

I'm not a Yorkshireman, nor do I live in those villages, I'm commenting on the enthusiasm with which those inhabitants celebrate their regional identities when I pass through.

The administrative areas of the 1970s were a typical new broom - look at the architecture that efficiency came up with, much of which is being pulled down. There is no reason why a person living within an old county boundary shouldn't pay tax to the authority that empties the bins while maintaining its identity. It was just a "modernising" exercise taken to a ridiculous conclusion.

 

[Howardh]

http://www.lankybeat.com/24-11-2011 18;24;54.jpg-for-web-large.jpg

Just look at it, a picture of pure beauty and elegance, an art gallery in it's own right.

 

[Greenback]

I can remember when I used to drive down to work in Swansea it used to say welcome to The City and County of Swansea - what was all that about ?

It means it was both a City and a County. Actually, it still is! The area of the administration includes not only the city and suburbs, but also Gower, Gorseinon, Loughor, Gowerton, Mumbles, Birchgrove, Morriston and other areas that have traditionally been a bit separated form the city itself.

So where does Greenback live as neither he mentions are on that list ?

It's definitely Carmarthenshire Council that I complain to about bin collections

 

[Seacook]

There is no county called 'Midlands'. There is, however, West Midlands county where I live, in the Western part of the Midlands area.

 

[DaleCooper]

Then there was the Soke of Peterborough which was once a a separate administrative county.

 

[martinsh]

Then there was the Soke of Peterborough which was once a a separate administrative county.

Not to mention the Isle of Ely

Then there are the "fictitious" counties. Ones that don't actually exist, but are used to refer to parts of exsiting counties e.g. Hallamshire (Sheffield), Banburyshire, Hexhamshire ...

 

[meridian2]

Not to mention the Isle of Ely

Then there are the "fictitious" counties. Ones that don't actually exist, but are used to refer to parts of exsiting counties e.g. Hallamshire (Sheffield), Banburyshire, Hexhamshire ...

You'll be telling us Borsetshire and Wessex are fictional next! Something I didn't know was how many counties had a separate bit in another county. I discovered it looking at a map of Flintshire which had an island in an adjoining county (Cheshire IIRC). It seems it was far from unique.

 

[Gareth]

By the way The Isles of Scilly, or Scilly but never the Scilly Isles, are not part of Cornwall and have their own council. It has been separate from Cornwall since 1888.

Again, they may have their own local government but are still considered Cornwall.

 

[radamfi]

I disagree. They're Yorkshire places. They belong in Yorkshire.

So would it make sense for refuse, schools etc. to be run by, say, Kirkless instead of Oldham Council? Surely there would be significant inefficiencies due to the huge distances involved?

What about Todmorden being split between two counties? Would it make administrative sense for that to have continued?

 

[Howardh]

So would it make sense for refuse, schools etc. to be run by, say, Kirkless instead of Oldham Council? Surely there would be significant inefficiencies due to the huge distances involved?

What about Todmorden being split between two counties? Would it make administrative sense for that to have continued?

If a bin wagon collects from 500 dwellings, and takes the rubbish to a recycling center, the difference in setting off from Huddersfield, Leeds or Oldham is almost insignificant. Schools? Makes no difference who administers you, costs are the same, enrolment the same etc.

What might complicate issues is public transport, and ticketing (eg the Manchester Ranger) if the majority of peoples travel is in GM rather than WY.

 

[Butts]

There is no county called 'Midlands'. There is, however, West Midlands county where I live, in the Western part of the Midlands area.

You live in Sandwell then.....Metropolitan Borough Of...

I used to live in Cradley Heath which had a postal address of ... Cradley Heath, Warley, West Midlands B64.....no mention of Sandwell !!

 

[muddythefish]

Manchester and Liverpool were always in Lancashire in my day.

As were Barrow, Southport, Warrington and Widnes.

Widnes, Cheshire, seems wrong to me. I mean, who'd want to live in Cheshire instead of the best county in the country?

 

[Howardh]

Manchester and Liverpool were always in Lancashire in my day.

As were Barrow, Southport, Warrington and Widnes.

Widnes, Cheshire, seems wrong to me. I mean, who'd want to live in Cheshire instead of the best county in the country?

Lancashire get superb support at Aigburth (in Liverpool), we won the Championship there!

 

[Seacook]

You live in Sandwell then.....Metropolitan Borough Of...

I used to live in Cradley Heath which had a postal address of ... Cradley Heath, Warley, West Midlands B64.....no mention of Sandwell !!

My postal address does not mention Sandwell either, just West Bromwich, West Midlands. I don't know anyone whose address includes Sandwell.

 

[randyrippley]

Typically English that Yorkshire appears to be divided into four parts one of which is the East Riding, when the word riding means a third.

there were only three Ridings in Yorkshire.
The current reformed system of multiple "counties" are not Ridings. They were lost at the change

 

[Butts]

My postal address does not mention Sandwell either, just West Bromwich, West Midlands. I don't know anyone whose address includes Sandwell.

Sandwell is just an administrative creation that encompasses The Black Country and other bits and pieces that would formerly have been in South Staffordshire , Worcestershire etc.

Unlike the other neighbouring MB's like Dudley,Walsall and Wolverhampton it does not have a real Town as it's focal point.

 

[Busaholic]

Hope you have your passport ready next time you cross the Tamar into Cornwall.

By the way The Isles of Scilly, or Scilly but never the Scilly Isles, are not part of Cornwall and have their own council. It has been separate from Cornwall since 1888.

I think you mean next time I cross the Tamar into Devon, given where I live

On the Scillies (an approved term) the unitary authority of Cornwall Council has assumed many powers (the local council is a glorified town council) and policing is in the hands of the Devon and Cornwall force. Almost nothing of any importance is left to the 2,000 strong population to decide amongst themselves.

 

[PaulLothian]

For what purpose is the list? Your question is a bit meaningless without knowing what you want to achieve.

Unlike in England, counties are of no relevance in Scotland as far as government is concerned - Scotland is divided into council areas for local government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Scotland#Council_areas

Have just come across this thread, and can perhaps add to this.

There are currently 32 Scottish authorities, of vastly varying sizes. Few of these, excepting the island councils, have exactly the same boundaries as any predecessors with the same name.

Wikipedia, as with most boring things, gives accurate data, which I will not post in full here as it is in tables - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Scotland#Council_areas

Current Scottish Councils are:
Aberdeen City
Aberdeenshire
Angus
Argyll and Bute
Clackmannanshire
Comhairle nan Eilean Siar (Western Isles Council)
Dumfries and Galloway
Dundee City
East Ayrshire
East Dunbartonshire
East Lothian
East Renfrewshire
City of Edinburgh
Falkirk
Fife
Glasgow City
Highland
Inverclyde
Midlothian
Moray
Orkney Islands
North Ayrshire
North Lanarkshire
Perth and Kinross
Renfrewshire
Scottish Borders
Shetland Islands
South Ayrshire
South Lanarkshire
Stirling
West Dunbartonshire
West Lothian

From 1975 to 1996, Scotland had a two-tier system of local government, and was divided into seven Regional Councils, subdivided into thirty-seven District Councils. The two layers took on different responsibilities (e.g. Education and Social Work were Regional, Housing and Waste Collection were District).

They are described well in the web page below in terms of the previously existing counties and counties of cities. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal...Government_in_Scotland#Local_government_areas)

From 1890 to 1975, there were 33 County Councils:

1. Caithness
2. Sutherland
3. Ross and Cromarty
4. Inverness
5. Nairn
6. Moray
(County of Elgin until 1918)
7. Banffshire
8. Aberdeen
9. Kincardineshire
10. Angus
(County of Forfar until 1928)
11. Perth
12. Argyll
13. Bute
14. Ayr
15. Renfrew
16. Dunbarton
17. Stirling
18. Clackmannan
19. Kinross
20. Fife
21. East Lothian
(County of Haddington until 1921)
22. Midlothian
(County of Edinburgh until 1890)
23. West Lothian
(County of Linlithgow until 1924)
24. Lanark
25. Peebles
26. Selkirk
27. Berwick
28. Roxburgh
29. Dumfries
30. Kirkcudbright
31. Wigtown
32. Zetland
(Shetland)
33. Orkney

Up till 1890, there were 34 Scottish Counties, some of which were rather unusual, based on former feudal land possession. My personal favourite, Cromartyshire, consisted of a small area around Cromarty itself, and up to 22 detached areas spread across the north Highlands, with the most distant being some 85 miles away on the west coast.

Some County Councillors for Inverness-shire and Ross-shire would have had epic journeys to council meetings as those areas included respectively the southern and northern Outer Hebrides, and roads were of course incredibly primitive and railways non-existent.

I have just realised that I find this almost as interesting as railway history...

 

[Trog]

Then there are the "fictitious" counties. Ones that don't actually exist, but are used to refer to parts of exsiting counties e.g. Hallamshire (Sheffield), Banburyshire, Hexhamshire ...

Hallamshire and Hexhamshire were real counties in the past, so not really fictitious..

 

[yorksrob]

Typically English that Yorkshire appears to be divided into four parts one of which is the East Riding, when the word riding means a third.

There are only three ridings, East, West and North. The modern day counties of West and South Yorkshire were largely carved out of what used to be the West Riding.

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester and Liverpool were always in Lancashire in my day.

As were Barrow, Southport, Warrington and Widnes.

Widnes, Cheshire, seems wrong to me. I mean, who'd want to live in Cheshire instead of the best county in the country?

What about Barnoldswick and Todmorden?

What's confusing is when someone says Hale, Cheshire as they could mean the village near Widnes which used to be in Lancashire or the Hale near Altrincham which used to be in Cheshire but the people who live there seem happier to still refer to Cheshire - even people who weren't born when the council changes happened.

A lot of people seem to think Cheshire shouldn't have industrial towns. Even the BBC have on more than one occasion referred to Ellesmere Port being in Merseyside. The old Cheshire boundary had salt mining, coal mining, silk production, hat making, ship building, train building etc. - it wasn't just a place where rich people from outside the area moved to.

 

[Gareth]

There's a lot of snobbery. It's certainly noticeable how the people most upset about changes to things like counties are those who feel the new arrangement puts them in a less 'posh' category. Much less so when it's the other way around.

I remember someone from Widnes writing in the local paper bemoaning Halton Borough's decision to be part of the Liverpool City Region and how being in Cheshire had done the town wonders over the years. Widnes was never a Cheshire town before the reforms of the seventies and so this person isn't making an argument in favour of tradition or historic identity. Note also that there wasn't (and still isn't) any plan to change any county boundaries with respect to Widnes. Nor can I see any obvious evidence that being considered Cheshire has benefited Widnes particularly.

It may be best to totally separate local government from the idea of 'county', with the latter being seen as a purely geographic, maybe cultural, thing. The counties could then be reverted back to more traditional boundaries. So whilst Widnes & Runcorn would both continue to be in Halton for local government purposes, Widnes would be considered Lancashire and Runcorn, Cheshire. The snob I referred to wouldn't be happy but she can lump it.

Being bold: maybe we should actually consider the return of proper municipal government. You know, letting towns & cities actually run themselves; something still common in much of the rest of the civilised world. Instead, we have 'local authorities' which do little other than resurfacing roads and changing the bulbs in streetlights and are otherwise just an adjunct of central government, based on mostly artificial boundaries designed for the central government's administrative convenience.

 

[northwichcat]

Nor can I see any obvious evidence that being considered Cheshire has benefited Widnes particularly.
...
So whilst Widnes & Runcorn would both continue to be in Halton for local government purposes

That might be the benefit of Widnes being in Cheshire over Lancashire - a local authority boundary putting Widnes and Runcorn in the same borough rather than the boundary being the river. However, I don't see the benefit of Runcorn+Widnes being in Cheshire over both towns being in Merseyside or Lancashire.

 

[Gareth]

Again though, should 'county' necessarily be wedded to administration? Could not Halton and even the Liverpool City Region of which it is a part, continue to exist, even if the river became the county boundary once more?

You could make totally artificial local government areas and name them 'Area 1', 'Area 2' etc paying no attention to county boundaries (wouldn't put Whitehall past trying something like that) and still have counties a separate non-administrative thing.

Northern Ireland is a good example of what I'm talking about. Its local government areas bear little resemblance to the traditional six counties and cross boundaries frequently. Yet, the six counties still exist, are still used to many purposes such as Lieutenancy areas and are generally still referred to with respect to local geography within Northern Ireland.

Local government crossing county boundaries is very common in the United States. It varies between state but most have some form of local government inspired by the traditional English system of municipal government for towns & cities and county government for smaller places that can't run themselves. It's almost more normal than not for a large city to be considered as in more than one county. Houston, for example, is in three: Harris, Fort Bend & Montgomery.

If we adopted (or, perhaps, returned to) this concept here, then people who find traditional counties important would be placated whilst those who don't care so much could continue to not care so much.

 

[A Challenge]

I agree with the Scottish list (the first by PaulLothian who does sound Scottish)