Countdown markers

[strange6]

I'm surprised none of these exist on the railways on the approach to stations. Yes, I know drivers know their routes well but surely they would be a liitle bit of extra help for the driver, especially newly qualified ones, if they could have a bit of visual help with their braking points. There is a sign on the approach to Westhoughton station warning of 'station ahead' but that's the only one I have ever seen

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Drivers tend to remember bridges etc as markers for stations...

 

[strange6]

Drivers tend to remember bridges etc as markers for stations...

Yup. Still would be useful though, especially on rural routes no doubt

 

[pendolino]

Yup. Still would be useful though, especially on rural routes no doubt

Not necessary really. With route knowledge, and going over the same route time and time again, there's no need for such markers, the driver knows where the station is.

I imagine the one at Westhoughton is more to do with fail-to-calls than identifying the position of the station, i.e., drivers knowing exactly where the station is but going straight through, having forgotten they're supposed to stop there. There's a couple more I think, for stations which perhaps have an irregular service, so the sign is there to remind the driver to check his/her diagram.

They're sometimes used for multi-SPAD signals too. For example, T22 at Norwood Jct has countdown markers not because the driver doesn't know the signal's there, but to tell him/her to STOP LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN SELHURST DEPOT AND CONCENTRATE ON WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING!

 

[Ploughman]

There are countdown markers, / // ///
But they are for Sandite application during leaf fall period.

 

[EM2]

Drivers tend to remember bridges etc as markers for stations...

And signal numbers

 

[Rugd1022]

Can see why you might think they'd be useful but there's really no need.... and anyway, we have enough to look out for as it is. In rural areas where there's not much around on the other side of the boundary fence, even the general shape of a cluster of trees in the distance can be a useful landmark... hope that makes sense.

If the railway network was as infested with the same amount of signage as our roads are today, there would be far more SPADs and station overuns etc, the more there is to distract a driver the more likely these would happen.

Certain types of markers do come in useful though - sandite markers for instance.



Edit... Ploughman beat me to it with the sandite boards..!

 

[Yew]

The problem i could see would be unions, train drivers beleive (rightly or wrongly) that their job requires more skill than a bus driver. However if they had signs saying brake here (or distance markers, and they know the stopping distances) then it would relegate the job to not missing a sign, and hitting the brakes if anyone is on the tracks/ emergancies.

Then im sure mr Mcnulty would be wondering why train drivers get paid more than bus drivers, when the modified job would definately be easier than driving a bus.

 

[pendolino]

signs saying brake here

would be utterly useless, as the braking point varies for all sorts of reasons.

 

[strange6]

Not necessary really. With route knowledge, and going over the same route time and time again, there's no need for such markers, the driver knows where the station is.

I imagine the one at Westhoughton is more to do with fail-to-calls than identifying the position of the station, i.e., drivers knowing exactly where the station is but going straight through, having forgotten they're supposed to stop there. There's a couple more I think, for stations which perhaps have an irregular service, so the sign is there to remind the driver to check his/her diagram.

They're sometimes used for multi-SPAD signals too. For example, T22 at Norwood Jct has countdown markers not because the driver doesn't know the signal's there, but to tell him/her to STOP LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN SELHURST DEPOT AND CONCENTRATE ON WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING!

hahaha You live and learn! And you're correct; it is there for fail-to-call reasons

 

[Yew]

would be utterly useless, as the braking point varies for all sorts of reasons.

Read the whole post, it puts distance markers with relation to stopping distances.

 

[pendolino]

Read the whole post, it puts distance markers with relation to stopping distances.

I read the whole post, stopping distances vary for a whole load of reasons.

 

[Yew]

I read the whole post, stopping distances vary for a whole load of reasons.

Yeah, so you just have to know your stopping distances, instead of knowing your stopping distances and how they relate to the track

 

[pendolino]

Yeah, so you just have to know your stopping distances, instead of knowing your stopping distances and how they relate to the track

Eh??

There is no set 'stopping distance' for a train, too many variables.

 

[Old Timer]

They're sometimes used for multi-SPAD signals too. For example, T22 at Norwood Jct has countdown markers not because the driver doesn't know the signal's there, but to tell him/her to STOP LOOKING AT WHAT'S GOING ON IN SELHURST DEPOT AND CONCENTRATE ON WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING!

Why is this only a modern issue ?

Never used to be a problem in BR days.

 

[strange6]

Why is this only a modern issue ?

Never used to be a problem in BR days.

yeah, and precise braking was much more difficult to master back then

 

[pendolino]

Why is this only a modern issue ?

Never used to be a problem in BR days.

What, SPADs?

 

[Pumbaa]

Yeah, so you just have to know your stopping distances, instead of knowing your stopping distances and how they relate to the track

Stopping distance depends on load, traction and importantly weather. Unless you are going to space out stopping boards for every weather type (rain, snow, light drizzle) you should just give up now!

 

[ainsworth74]

Stopping distance depends on load, traction and importantly weather. Unless you are going to space out stopping boards for every weather type (rain, snow, light drizzle) you should just give up now!

As well as for every bit of traction that might call at a station so for Leeds you will need boards for 142, 144 (both 2 and 3 car), 150, 153, 155, 158, 170, 185, 220, 221, 321, 333, HST and 91+Mk4. That's a lot of boards! Even smaller stations like Northallerton will have 180, 185, 220, 221, HST (2+4, 2+5 and 2+9) and 91+Mk4s. And each of those types will need boards for different weather conditions.

 

[Pumbaa]

Precisely! Nothing is better than a professional at the controls.

 

[notadriver]

The problem i could see would be unions, train drivers beleive (rightly or wrongly) that their job requires more skill than a bus driver. However if they had signs saying brake here (or distance markers, and they know the stopping distances) then it would relegate the job to not missing a sign, and hitting the brakes if anyone is on the tracks/ emergancies.

Then im sure mr Mcnulty would be wondering why train drivers get paid more than bus drivers, when the modified job would definately be easier than driving a bus.

You wouldn't happen to be a bus driver would you?

 

[strange6]

Can see why you might think they'd be useful but there's really no need.... and anyway, we have enough to look out for as it is. In rural areas where there's not much around on the other side of the boundary fence, even the general shape of a cluster of trees in the distance can be a useful landmark... hope that makes sense.

If the railway network was as infested with the same amount of signage as our roads are today, there would be far more SPADs and station overuns etc, the more there is to distract a driver the more likely these would happen.

I was expecting this answer to come from somebody who knows what they're talking about. And I agree, you do have enough to look out for without additional signage

 

[driver9000]

Brakes can also perform differently among the same class which would make fixed markers inaccurate potentially leading to more over runs. I don't brake at fixed points, I have variable areas which I brake in depending the situation on the day, the routes I work on have no countdown markers and only one 'signal ahead' board, over runs, fail to calls and spads are very rare too.

 

[moggie]

Why is this only a modern issue ?

Never used to be a problem in BR days.

eh hem - Wembley Oct 1984 (and no doubt a few more)

 

[strange6]

Brakes can also perform differently among the same class which would make fixed markers inaccurate potentially leading to more over runs. I don't brake at fixed points, I have variable areas which I brake in depending the situation on the day, the routes I work on have no countdown markers and only one 'signal ahead' board, over runs, fail to calls and spads are very rare too.

To tell you the truth, I was thinking more about night time when it's pitch black and they could have been used as a guide. I find it pretty damn awesome that your Virgin or XC driver could have spent the best part of 1 hour running at 125mph in pitch black and then have the skill to break that thing safely for the next station stop. That takes some doing, with intense concentration needed!! The run up to Carlisle is a good example

 

[Old Timer]

eh hem - Wembley Oct 1984 (and no doubt a few more)

I suggest you re-read the paragraph to which I replied ?

Distraction was not an issue at Wembley, neither was Colwich, neither was Purley, neither was Newton, neither was Southall, neither was Ladbroke Grove just to name a few.

For the record the Driver at Wembley had a medical condition that led to inadvertent lapses of inattention.

Indeed I am struggling to recall a SPaD collision that was attributed to distraction.

The only one that could have been attributed partially to distraction was the wartime Norton Fitwarren derailment.

In all the SPaDs I have been involved in dealing with none were attributed to or alleged to have been caused by "external" distraction.

 

[O L Leigh]

Why is this only a modern issue ?

Because management these days feels a need to be seen to be doing something, perhaps...?

In fairness, we only have countdown markers for multi-SPAD signals were sighting is an issue. Alternatively we might have boards saying something like "XX metres to LXXX". But they are not generally used and certainly not normally for signals where distraction could be an issue.

O L Leigh

 

[BestWestern]

There are countdown boards on the approach to Chandlers Ford station, on a single line section between Romsey and Eastleigh, in Hampshire. If memory serves me correctly there are three boards at intervals coming from the Romsey direction, which state the distance to the station, so presumably are there only as a braking aid for Drivers, unless anybody signs it and knows differently?

 

[O L Leigh]

I find it pretty damn awesome that your Virgin or XC driver could have spent the best part of 1 hour running at 125mph in pitch black and then have the skill to break that thing safely for the next station stop. That takes some doing, with intense concentration needed!!

Thanks. It's nice to have your admiration.

However, I have to agree with my colleagues who have already said that countdown marker boards for stations are not required. We all have landmarks that we look out for to warn of an approaching station (yes, even in the pitch dark) as well as knowing the braking zones for each and every station. Laying out marker boards really would not add much as we're already looking out the window for our landmarks anyway.

O L Leigh

 

[asylumxl]

I've noticed what appear to be countdown markers just south of Bedford, Are these counting down distance or speed? Sorry for my ignorance.