Could you bring Thameslink core up to Elizabeth line standards?

[tasky]

The question is in the title, really: the Elizabeth Line is a great way to get across London.

Thameslink also is, to an extent - the frequency is excellent. But in the core, and also parts of south London it can also feel very slow for a mainline railway, with services running at 30mph and even 20mph in parts, such as joining the core from London Bridge.

In previous threads I've heard different explanations from this, from pathing requirements, to track geometry and linespeed. I'm not clear on what it would take or how realistic it is.

But would it be possible, and if so what would it take, to raise linespeed so that it felt like more of an express service like the Elizabeth Line? Or at least close to it. Currently the Northern Line gives it a run of its money in parts.

Putting a bit of a crayonista hat on, if Thameslink operated to a similar standard as the Elizabeth Line, and were Crossrail 2 ever built, you could group the three lines as a system (perhaps called Crossrail) with constituent lines Elizabeth Line, Thameslink Line (or whatever), and whatever you wanted to call Crossrail 2. It would all amount to a nice little RER/S-Bahn service.

Currently, to make a crude journey time comparison:

On the Elizabeth Line, Paddington to Liverpool Street, which is 4 miles as the crow flies, is 10 minutes
On Thameslink, King's Cross to Blackfriars, which is 1.65 miles as the crow flies is about 8 or 9 minutes

 

[SynthD]

The Crossrail core was built without any historical running rights. Thameslink runs on tracks that other stock will be on.

Pathing time, aka padding, helps smoothen out the many branches of Thameslink into an orderly and consistent flow through its core. When things are going well, it’s just time to burn.

 

[30907]

Essentially you would need to build a new railway to gain any significant increase in speed

 

[swt_passenger]

Another difficulty with the Thameslink core is its relatively short overall distance (eg from London Bridge to St Pancras) and the three intermediate stations are not spread out evenly along the route, in fact there’s so little distance between Blackfriars and Farringdon I doubt that bit could ever be speeded up by much at all.

 

[AM9]

The Crossrail core was built without any historical running rights. Thameslink runs on tracks that other stock will be on.

Pathing time, aka padding, helps smoothen out the many branches of Thameslink into an orderly and consistent flow through its core. When things are going well, it’s just time to burn.

Given the constraints, TL does pretty well most of the time, especially as it is threading it's way througn the labyrinthine network of junctions south of the core. If that had ERTMS or an equivalent 21st century signalling system as the core does, and when the MML is fully upgraded with all services at least having EMU rates of acceleration, we might find that much of the queueing at the various entry points to the core runs with even less disruption.

Once the Lizzie is running it's full service between all four branches, and delays on GWR or GE 'Main' tracks upset XR's exclusivity of the 'Electric track, there might be some serious hiccups occasionally.

 

[snowball]

Remove destinations from the ends of the Thameslink network until it's as simple as the Crossrail network?

 

[AM9]

Remove destinations from the ends of the Thameslink network until it's as simple as the Crossrail network?

The problem there would be the lack of turnround capacity at either end of the core.

 

[Basil Jet]

Putting a bit of a crayonista hat on, if Thameslink operated to a similar standard as the Elizabeth Line, and were Crossrail 2 ever built, you could group the three lines as a system (perhaps called Crossrail) with constituent lines Elizabeth Line, Thameslink Line (or whatever), and whatever you wanted to call Crossrail 2. It would all amount to a nice little RER/S-Bahn service.

I've always assumed that this was precisely the thinking behind the Crossrail Logo...

 

[Mikey C]

I've sometimes wondered whether with all the expense of rebuilding the Thameslink line over the last 20 years, leaving us a railway still with an awkward and slow route between London Bridge and Blackfriars, whether it would have been better to have just built a Crossrail style tunnel in the first place. Or for part of the way, say between Farringdon and Bricklayers Arms, with an underground station at London Bridge, reducing the need for the massive rebuild at London Bridge or the new Borough viaduct.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've sometimes wondered whether with all the expense of rebuilding the Thameslink line over the last 20 years, leaving us a railway still with an awkward and slow route between London Bridge and Blackfriars, whether it would have been better to have just built a Crossrail style tunnel in the first place. Or for part of the way, say between Farringdon and Bricklayers Arms, with an underground station at London Bridge, reducing the need for the massive rebuild at London Bridge or the new Borough viaduct.

A tunnelled option was looked at but found to be too costly, I think it was stated in the inspectors report for the Borough and London Bridge alterations. It’s definitely been discussed in a number of previous threads where others have had the same idea.

 

[Bald Rick]

In previous threads I've heard different explanations from this, from pathing requirements, to track geometry and linespeed. I'm not clear on what it would take or how realistic it is.

The linespeed is down to the track alignment, which in turn is down largely to it being subsurface following street alignments. You have our Victorian forefathers to thank for that. Speeding it up means building a brand new railway.

Currently, to make a crude journey time comparison:

On the Elizabeth Line, Paddington to Liverpool Street, which is 4 miles as the crow flies, is 10 minutes
On Thameslink, King's Cross to Blackfriars, which is 1.65 miles as the crow flies is about 8 or 9 minutes

It’s 2.2 miles from St Pancras to Blackfriars by Thameslink. The time spent at stations is a big factor in this.

Station dwell times in the Thameslink core are 1 minute each, with (usually) 2 at London Bridge; on Crossrail they average at 45 seconds, and arguably that is too long.

 

[Fyldeboy]

Station dwell times in the Thameslink core are 1 minute each, with (usually) 2 at London Bridge; on Crossrail they average at 45 seconds, and arguably that is too long.

I presume the shorter dwell time is primarily due to the platform edge doors ensuring boarding passengers know where to stand?

 

[Bald Rick]

I presume the shorter dwell time is primarily due to the platform edge doors ensuring boarding passengers know where to stand?

that’s part of it, also more doors per metre of train, and also because there is much less doubt about where the train is going, and therefore fewer people on the platform who aren’t boarding (and thus in the way)

 

[whoosh]

I've always assumed that this was precisely the thinking behind the Crossrail Logo...

What Crossrail 1, Thameslink, and Crossrail 2?

I completely disagree. It looks obvious to me that it's a W on the left (albeit on it's side) and an E on the right, and Crossrail links West of London through to the East.

 

[Basil Jet]

I presume the shorter dwell time is primarily due to the platform edge doors ensuring boarding passengers know where to stand?

At Farringdon (TL) there are rubber extension pads on the edge of the platform that line up with the doors, presumably at other TL stations too, but admittedly they are not immediately obvious.

 

[Bald Rick]

At Farringdon (TL) there are rubber extension pads on the edge of the platform that line up with the doors, presumably at other TL stations too, but admittedly they are not immediately obvious.

There are certainly markings on the platforms to show where the doors will be.

 

[Mikw]

I can only imagine the cost and complexity of rebuilding it.

To be honest i think the Elizabeth Line is a once in a generation things anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

To be honest i think the Elizabeth Line is a once in a generation things anyway.

Once in a lifetime I would have thought now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are certainly markings on the platforms to show where the doors will be.

Have they moved them so they are actually where the doors will be? Last time I looked they were in the wrong place.

 

[Basil Jet]

Once in a lifetime I would have thought now.

The Victoria Line, Jubilee Line initial, Jubilee Line extension and Elizabeth Line have all happened in my lifetime.

 

[Haywain]

At Farringdon (TL) there are rubber extension pads on the edge of the platform that line up with the doors, presumably at other TL stations too, but admittedly they are not immediately obvious.

I think that's just on the raised area of the platforms in the core where they allow for level boarding to the wheelchair/disabled spaces.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Could a case be made to say 'you must have ETCS, 700 performance and be compatible with PEDs to operate' in the core between 0430-0000 daily justify a speed increase - perhaps only to ETCS traffic?

 

[Haywain]

Could a case be made to say 'you must have ETCS, 700 performance and be compatible with PEDs to operate' in the core between 0430-0000 daily justify a speed increase - perhaps only to ETCS traffic?

The only trains operating in the Thameslink core are ETCS fitted 700s. However, I suspect platform edge doors are not compatible with curved platforms.

 

[SynthD]

You could say that in the shared areas that the timetable should be closer to the 700s ability. But that just adds risk from other trains being closer to causing delays, as recovery time would also be less.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could a case be made to say 'you must have ETCS, 700 performance and be compatible with PEDs to operate' in the core between 0430-0000 daily justify a speed increase - perhaps only to ETCS traffic?

you might have missed it upthread, but it is the alignment that determines the linespeed. It is very, very twisty.

 

[AM9]

you might have missed it upthread, but it is the alignment that determines the linespeed. It is very, very twisty.

I think that some of the suggestions here are from posters who:
a) don't understand why TL was created in the first place
b) don't appreciate just how highly tuned the infrastructure and trains are to get a generally reliable service through the core
and c) understand that even with a complete replacement the core tracks/tunnels/stations and removal of conflicts south of Blackfriars, there would probably be less than 3 minutes improvement for a service required to call at four intermediate stations in just four miles.

 

[Agent_Squash]

you might have missed it upthread, but it is the alignment that determines the linespeed. It is very, very twisty.

oops - my mistake indeed!

An ideal world would have a slightly faster speed between Farringdon and St Pancras - but that alignment won't make anything easy!

 

[Bald Rick]

Related to all this, but from personal observation, trains that are in ATO manage Blackfriars Junction to Kentish Town about 2 minutes quicker, on average, than those that are driven manually. This is mostly in the braking, and a little in the acceleration. So you don’t necessarily need speed to be quicker.

 

[AM9]

Related to all this, but from personal observation, trains that are in ATO manage Blackfriars Junction to Kentish Town about 2 minutes quicker, on average, than those that are driven manually. This is mostly in the braking, and a little in the acceleration. So you don’t necessarily need speed to be quicker.

How is it possible for a passenger to detect that the train they are on is running under ATO?

 

[Bald Rick]

How is it possible for a passenger to detect that the train they are on is running under ATO?

The best way is to be sat in the passenger area directly behind the driver, and listen. If you hear the AWS pinging, it’s not in ATO! (Noting you may need a first class ticket to sit there).

Another way is that the doors open in the core immediately on stopping, as the train does not need to wait for driver release.

Finally, if you are on, or see, a train accelerating through a platform, and braking at the last moment - particularly if it’s on approach to a red signal - thats ATO. Happened to mine last night.

EDIT: And this morning.

EDIT 2: And again this evening!