Could Windermere electrification return (to win votes)?

[jon0844]

The central lakes dayrider bought on the bus is £8.30 - though has a larger validity area than the plusbus.
The single cash fare from Windermere to Grasmere is nearly £7 so plusbus is still a large discount for doing a return journey or m,ore than one trip

Still seems particularly high, and given buses seem to get good levels of usage it seems even more odd.

Then again driving isn't cheap either if you want to park in lots of places to do walks etc, and that's if there's any spaces at all during busy times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still seems particularly high, and given buses seem to get good levels of usage it seems even more odd.

Quite similar to the Isle of Wight in a way. High quality rural bus services[1] cost a lot of money to provide - if it can come from the farebox as people are willing to pay for it (as it seems they are), all the better. I've used buses in the Lakes and have not felt ripped off; I'd rather the Lakes fares and quality than the appallingly bad but cheaper operations around Snowdonia, for instance. Those in real *need* of the service on a day to day basis are probably on free passes and heavily discounted season tickets anyway.

[1] I'm not convinced there is a higher quality rural bus service anywhere in the world than Southern Vectis, and the Lakes services come pretty close, I'd say.

 

[jon0844]

Yes there do seem to be plenty of buses on offer. If a lot of people have passes, possibly very much so on IoW in particular, this mast impact the revenue and encorage higher fares given how the income is calculated.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite similar to the Isle of Wight in a way. High quality rural bus services[1] cost a lot of money to provide - if it can come from the farebox as people are willing to pay for it (as it seems they are), all the better. I've used buses in the Lakes and have not felt ripped off; I'd rather the Lakes fares and quality than the appallingly bad but cheaper operations around Snowdonia, for instance. Those in real *need* of the service on a day to day basis are probably on free passes and heavily discounted season tickets anyway.

[1] I'm not convinced there is a higher quality rural bus service anywhere in the world than Southern Vectis, and the Lakes services come pretty close, I'd say.

I'm afraid I object to coughing up a tenner to get to Conniston, which doesn't even get you a return if you're staying overnight.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm afraid I object to coughing up a tenner to get to Conniston, which doesn't even get you a return if you're staying overnight.

Bizarrely a single is £9.80 but a Dayrider £8.30. I'm surprised there are no period returns.

 

[tbtc]

I'm afraid I object to coughing up a tenner to get to Conniston, which doesn't even get you a return if you're staying overnight.

Could just be that you are used to heavily subsidised tickets on loss making train services?

Stagecoach charge a commercial fare - I'm sure if they received the kind of subsidies at Windermere that the TOC providing trains to Windermere got then the ticket prices would come down.

£8.30 day return for a round trip of almost twenty five miles doesn't seem too bad value to me - considering you can easily pay over a quid a mile for urban bus journeys.

Bizarrely a single is £9.80 but a Dayrider £8.30. I'm surprised there are no period returns.

Nothing bizarre about it - given the pensioner market in the Lakes, it's efficient for Stagecoach to base the reimbursement for each "twirly" based on the nominal single fare, whilst working age adults get a discount - one of those "don't blame Stagecoach, blame the people who came up with the rules for "supposedly free OAP tickets"

 

[B&I]

What, you mean like it actually is?

It'd integrate better if it was pure clockface (it's a bit off) - the better acceleration of EMUs would allow this to be done.

My default assumption is that any given part of England will not have workable integrated transport because it is my usual experience that it won't

 

[yorksrob]

Could just be that you are used to heavily subsidised tickets on loss making train services?

Stagecoach charge a commercial fare - I'm sure if they received the kind of subsidies at Windermere that the TOC providing trains to Windermere got then the ticket prices would come down.

£8.30 day return for a round trip of almost twenty five miles doesn't seem too bad value to me - considering you can easily pay over a quid a mile for urban bus journeys.

I'm more interested in a functioning public transport system, rather than some ideologically inspired failure designed to be "commercial", such is the legacy of bus de-regulation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing bizarre about it - given the pensioner market in the Lakes, it's efficient for Stagecoach to base the reimbursement for each "twirly" based on the nominal single fare, whilst working age adults get a discount - one of those "don't blame Stagecoach, blame the people who came up with the rules for "supposedly free OAP tickets"

I'd personally call that "fraudulent", as (hopefully) none of the single fares are ever sold, therefore the de-facto single, day return and day ticket fares are all the same at £8.30. If I were in charge of reimbursement I would certainly call them on that.

 

[thenorthern]

It could be a vote winner however I think that more services running beyond Oxenholme would be a better vote winner as at the moment only 4 trains per day in each direction leave the branch most of which run at off-peak times, back in 2004 I think 6 trains per day left the branch and I think in some years there has been even more than that. Also while electrification was supported by many there was some opposition to the move as some people didn't want catenary in the Lake District National Park.

 

[JohnR]

Is electrification really worth the money if the route could use all battery or battery/diesel hybrid technology in the next 5, 10 or 15 years?

I hear Bionic Duckweed is just around the corner.

 

[jon0844]

I hear Bionic Duckweed is just around the corner.

Battery technology is pretty mature now.. it's more the charging (speed and efficiency, as well as protecting the batteries from abnormal wear) that needs a bit more work.

Unlike the belief all cars will drive themselves 'in 10 years', batteries will become much more mainstream in this time. I was being quite generous with my 15 years more because of the fact the railway moves so slowly.

 

[thenorthern]

Personally I think the Windermere Branch Line is not suitable to test out new ideas or "alternative fuel trains", for a start its a short branch with only one way in and out which is a spur off the West Coast Main Line meaning if a train breaks down which is more likely with new technology the line would be blocked until a rescue train removes it, the nearest places with any trains that could do that are Carlisle and Carnforth both of which would require a lot of West Coast Main Line running to get to the branch and to remove a failed train from the branch. Also there are no TMDs nearby which isn't ideal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be a vote winner however I think that more services running beyond Oxenholme would be a better vote winner as at the moment only 4 trains per day in each direction leave the branch most of which run at off-peak times, back in 2004 I think 6 trains per day left the branch and I think in some years there has been even more than that. Also while electrification was supported by many there was some opposition to the move as some people didn't want catenary in the Lake District National Park.

The railway loves ugly box girder catenary, but couldn't something nicer be used in some locations like the traditional style ones used on some tramways?

 

[AndrewE]

The railway loves ugly box girder catenary, but couldn't something nicer be used in some locations like the traditional style ones used on some tramways?

It has been said before that as the branch is so petite a single trolley wire will do, maybe even drawing its current off the end of the wire in Oxenholme platform. A simple elegant curved girder with a discrete insulator hanger should do the job.

 

[northwichcat]

Nothing bizarre about it - given the pensioner market in the Lakes, it's efficient for Stagecoach to base the reimbursement for each "twirly" based on the nominal single fare, whilst working age adults get a discount - one of those "don't blame Stagecoach, blame the people who came up with the rules for "supposedly free OAP tickets"

When I made a similar point before I was told ENCTS reimbursement related to the average fare paid by an adult for a single journey opposed to the cost of a single ticket.

 

[Along the bay]

It could be a vote winner however I think that more services running beyond Oxenholme would be a better vote winner as at the moment only 4 trains per day in each direction leave the branch most of which run at off-peak times, back in 2004 I think 6 trains per day left the branch and I think in some years there has been even more than that. Also while electrification was supported by many there was some opposition to the move as some people didn't want catenary in the Lake District National Park.

There was a picture in a modern railways magazine some time ago of at least 5 power lines of various sizes somewhere on the branch with a 185 in the back ground so centenary isn't new to the lake district.

 

[Ianno87]

It has been said before that as the branch is so petite a single trolley wire will do, maybe even drawing its current off the end of the wire in Oxenholme platform. A simple elegant curved girder with a discrete insulator hanger should do the job.

My understanding is that the point of Windermere electrification is that it can do as you say - simply plug into the existing WCML wires - no new feeders etc.

Platform 3(?) got wired itself when the minor remodelling of the south end was done a few years ago - it can be seen where the masts are now set up for an overlap beyond the platform for the wires to continue!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm kinda mixed on this. On the one hand, electrification would be great if it happened, and it is true that this must be about as simple an electrification as you can get... single track branching of an already electrified line, the junction has already been electrified, and if I recall correctly, I think there are only four overbridges - and two of those are little more than farm tracks. I guess the main benefit would be slightly reduced journey times, and less noise in a fairly remote area (those diesels can be heard from a fair distance in Windermere).

On the other hand, I don't think diesel pollution is so much of an issue there as it would be in cities... the area is too remote and the stations are too open to cause issues. And the argument about diesels under the wires would only be important if there was a serious plan to extend most trains beyond Oxenholme. It would be great for connectivity (though maybe not for reliability on the branch) if that was done, but unless it's going to be done, the argument for electrification is going to look a bit weak. And as it is, the journey times on the route ought to make it possible to run an hourly shuttle quite efficiently with one diesel unit. Another minor issue for me is, that I would hope that in the long term we'd be to looking to provide a passing loop, perhaps between Kendal and Burneside to facilitate an increase in frequency: Is there a risk that electrification could be done in a way that makes that harder to achieve?

Also, I think there are several obvious improvements to the branch that don't involve electrification, and which may well have bigger benefits to passengers, and which I'd hate to be overlooked. Most obviously to my mind are...

• Sorting out that level crossing at Burneside.
• Clockface timetable (I'm not sure why this isn't done already when most trains are just shuttles. Is there some issue with non-clockface connections at Oxenholme?)
• Improvements to Kendal station - the entrance in particular is currently very inconveniently sited. An entrance at the Eastern end of the platform, from the A6, would make the station much easier for a lot of people to get to.
• Similarly at Windermere, a path directly to the Town Centre would make the station a lot easier to get to from much of Windermere. (At the moment, you can do it almost directly, but only if you're willing to clamber up/down a very steep and quite well hidden dirt track just below the car park - so not for the faint hearted).
• Stopping all trains at all stations. Again, I'm not sure why this isn't done already, as the time savings for skipping Burneside and Staveley must be tiny, and the result is a pretty rubbish service to both villages.

Clearly all those things could be done as well as electrification, but I wouldn't want a focus on electrification to result in those other potential improvements being forgotten about.

 

[thenorthern]

From memory Tim Farron the local MP has been pushing for electrification of the Windermere Branch and the Furness Line for many years. The only real argument that the Conservatives could put forward is "yes we promised it before and we let you down but trust us this time as we can form a government the Liberal Democrats can't".

Westmorland and Lonsdale until 2017 was the Liberal Democrats safest area in England however a strong campaign by the Conservatives in 2017 while Tim Farron was busy campaigning elsewhere moaning about Brexit cut the majority significantly in Westmoreland and Lonsdale. Given the Liberal Democrats now only have 12 seats they will campaign hard as only the untouchable Orkney and Shetland is a certainty for them.

Also at the next election I think the Conservatives will be campaigning hard in Grange-over-Sands as at the local elections this year the Liberal Democrats gained all 3 councillors for the Grange Ward which is the first time in many many years that the Conservatives have not been the largest party in Grange-over-Sands. This is very important given that Grange-over-Sands has a large senior population who are more likely to vote and electrification of the Windermere Branch line is of little interest to people in Grange-over-Sands.

 

[AndrewE]

On the other hand, I don't think diesel pollution is so much of an issue there as it would be in cities... the area is too remote and the stations are too open to cause issues. And the argument about diesels under the wires would only be important if there was a serious plan to extend most trains beyond Oxenholme. It would be great for connectivity (though maybe not for reliability on the branch) if that was done, but unless it's going to be done, the argument for electrification is going to look a bit weak. And as it is, the journey times on the route ought to make it possible to run an hourly shuttle quite efficiently with one diesel unit. Another minor issue for me is, that I would hope that in term where we'd be to looking to provide a passing loop, perhaps between Kendal and Burneside to facilitate an increase in frequency: Is there a risk that electrification could be done in a way that makes that harder to achieve?

Also, I think there are several obvious improvements to the branch that don't involve electrification, and which may well have bigger benefits to passengers, and which I'd hate to be overlooked. Most obviously to my mind are...

• Sorting out that level crossing at Burneside.
• Clockface timetable (I'm not sure why this isn't done already when most trains are just shuttles. Is there some issue with non-clockface connections at Oxenholme?)
• Improvements to Kendal station - the entrance in particular is currently very inconveniently sited. An entrance at the Eastern end of the platform, from the A6, would make the station much easier for a lot of people to get to.
• Similarly at Windermere, a path directly to the Town Centre would make the station a lot easier to get to from much of Windermere. (At the moment, you can do it almost directly, but only if you're willing to clamber up/down a very steep and quite well hidden dirt track just below the car park - so not for the faint hearted).
• Stopping all trains at all stations. Again, I'm not sure why this isn't done already, as the time savings for skipping Burneside and Staveley must be tiny, and the result is a pretty rubbish service to both villages.

Clearly all those things could be done as well as electrification, but I wouldn't want a focus on electrification to result in those other potential improvements being forgotten about.

I want to see diesel disappear from everywhere possible asap, so I would happily live with an electrified branch line with poor infrastructure to get the benefits of through workings into our cities. I got a 319 from Poulton-le-Fylde to Preston today: No big deal really, but to me it seemed a transformation in journey quality over DMUs, which is all that I can remember.
The biggest risk is that if you want all (or even any of) your bells and whistles the cost will be so great that it will be thrown out before even being considered for de-scoping. Improvements would be nice, but we will have to wait for a government and civil service (and economists) with a totally different perspective to those ruling now.

 

[Clip]

I want to see diesel disappear from everywhere possible asap, so I would happily live with an electrified branch line with poor infrastructure to get the benefits of through workings into our cities. I got a 319 from Poulton-le-Fylde to Preston today: No big deal really, but to me it seemed a transformation in journey quality over DMUs, which is all that I can remember.
The biggest risk is that if you want all (or even any of) your bells and whistles the cost will be so great that it will be thrown out before even being considered for de-scoping. Improvements would be nice, but we will have to wait for a government and civil service (and economists) with a totally different perspective to those ruling now.

I agree wholeheartedly - Its a big difference when doing the Blackpool north line on a 319 than whatever else they may use - would be great if they done Blackpool south too but thats never gonna happen

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I want to see diesel disappear from everywhere possible asap, so I would happily live with an electrified branch line with poor infrastructure to get the benefits of through workings into our cities. I got a 319 from Poulton-le-Fylde to Preston today: No big deal really, but to me it seemed a transformation in journey quality over DMUs, which is all that I can remember.
The biggest risk is that if you want all (or even any of) your bells and whistles the cost will be so great that it will be thrown out before even being considered for de-scoping. Improvements would be nice, but we will have to wait for a government and civil service (and economists) with a totally different perspective to those ruling now.

I agree that you don't want a project thrown out altogether because it was too ambitious. But just to clarify, I was suggesting that, if there was the option to have some improvements on the Windermere line, I would argue that the various infrastructure enhancements I suggested would be better than electrification... In other words, if it was one or the other, I'd go for the infrastructure improvements. That's because doing things like improving access to stations would make a real difference to passengers using the line. Electrification, by contrast, on its own would simply tick a couple of environmental boxes without making much difference to passengers. I understand your point about the 319's being more comfortable than Northern's old DMUs. But Northern is getting a new fleet anyway, so even without electrification, the Windermere line will almost certainly be getting brand new trains in the next few years. And I wouldn't bet on a 30-year-old 319 being more comfortable than a newly built train, whether diesel or electric!

Of course, if electrification was accompanied by all Windermere trains running through to Manchester or somewhere, then that would make a difference to people. But the difference would be from the through running, not the electrification. And since a timetable change like that would require paths to be found at the Manchester end, as well as a DfT decision to - in effect - run a more frequent service South of Oxenholme, I don't think there's any guarantee that it would automatically happen just because of electrification.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that you don't want a project thrown out altogether because it was too ambitious. But just to clarify, I was suggesting that, if there was the option to have some improvements on the Windermere line, I would argue that the various infrastructure enhancements I suggested would be better than electrification... In other words, if it was one or the other, I'd go for the infrastructure improvements. That's because doing things like improving access to stations would make a real difference to passengers using the line. Electrification, by contrast, on its own would simply tick a couple of environmental boxes without making much difference to passengers. I understand your point about the 319's being more comfortable than Northern's old DMUs. But Northern is getting a new fleet anyway, so even without electrification, the Windermere line will almost certainly be getting brand new trains in the next few years. And I wouldn't bet on a 30-year-old 319 being more comfortable than a newly built train, whether diesel or electric!

Of course, if electrification was accompanied by all Windermere trains running through to Manchester or somewhere, then that would make a difference to people. But the difference would be from the through running, not the electrification. And since a timetable change like that would require paths to be found at the Manchester end, as well as a DfT decision to - in effect - run a more frequent service South of Oxenholme, I don't think there's any guarantee that it would automatically happen just because of electrification.

I suppose that with electrification, you get an almost limitless supply of rolling stock with which to run such through services, whereas its uncertain how many of the new diesel units will be available for such services, once the pacers have gone to the great depot in the sky.

 

[AndrewE]

I suppose that with electrification, you get an almost limitless supply of rolling stock with which to run such through services, whereas its uncertain how many of the new diesel units will be available for such services, once the pacers have gone to the great depot in the sky.

...and especially when it is likely that the big cities (Manchester, maybe Liverpool too) will ban any diesel traction/vehicles if an alternative exists.
Get a bit more through running and that, with the sparks effect, will boost traffic to the point that your other infrastructure upgrades become justifiable. It's just a pity that they will inevitably cost more because the wires will complicate all the other jobs that need doing.

 

[yorksrob]

...and especially when it is likely that the big cities (Manchester, maybe Liverpool too) will ban any diesel traction/vehicles if an alternative exists.
Get a bit more through running and that, with the sparks effect, will boost traffic to the point that your other infrastructure upgrades become justifiable. It's just a pity that they will inevitably cost more because the wires will complicate all the other jobs that need doing.

A lot of DynamicSpirit's suggested improvements seem very much achievable without impacting the permanent way itself. Together, it could be a very good package of improvements.

 

[Clip]

Electrification, by contrast, on its own would simply tick a couple of environmental boxes without making much difference to passengers.

Not having to change and miss a connection makes a massive difference to passengers - the actual environmental issues are a nice benefit of electrifying the line.

I understand your point about the 319's being more comfortable than Northern's old DMUs. But Northern is getting a new fleet anyway, so even without electrification, the Windermere line will almost certainly be getting brand new trains in the next few years. And I wouldn't bet on a 30-year-old 319 being more comfortable than a newly built train, whether diesel or electric!

Well go and view the many many other threads on new trains and peoples perception of the seats on new trains - perceived or otherwise - shows that they dont always improve with being 'new'.

Of course, if electrification was accompanied by all Windermere trains running through to Manchester or somewhere, then that would make a difference to people. But the difference would be from the through running, not the electrification. And since a timetable change like that would require paths to be found at the Manchester end, as well as a DfT decision to - in effect - run a more frequent service South of Oxenholme, I don't think there's any guarantee that it would automatically happen just because of electrification.

Why not? Why does Manchester have to be the pinch point here? Why not through trains from all over the north? Im pretty sure residents of Liverpool would enjoy such a service and i know people from London would like something like a nice Pendolino all the way through to Windermere if they could lengthen the platforms to fit. Hell the possibilities are endless and im sure those in the lakes who reply on tourism would certainly welcome the extra people such services could bring.

And yes doing it and lengthening platforms is expensive stuff but this is the speculation thread after all