Could Windermere electrification return (to win votes)?

[Agent_Squash]

Was reading through the thread about pollution at Birmingham New Street and it was noted that the idea of Windermere electrification could return as a vote winner. Westmorland and Lonsdale (of which the entire route is located in) is a seat with a 1,500 majority to the Lib Dems - and considering Grayling is motivated by politics more than anything, could CCHQ be dropping the idea again to push their candidate over the line?

 

[yorksrob]

If it were tied up with better (electric) through services, it could well be a winner.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Was reading through the thread about pollution at Birmingham New Street and it was noted that the idea of Windermere electrification could return as a vote winner. Westmorland and Lonsdale (of which the entire route is located in) is a seat with a 1,500 majority to the Lib Dems - and considering Grayling is motivated by politics more than anything, could CCHQ be dropping the idea again to push their candidate over the line?

From a rail supporter's POV it sounds good. But the sitting MP is, despite his occasional PR gaffes, rather popular on a personal basis. I'm not sure the public is quite so easily taken in by electoral "bribes" as might have been the case in the past. Much of the electorate is just as cynical as any politician meaning they understand political games, at least to some extent.

 

[jon0844]

Is electrification really worth the money if the route could use all battery or battery/diesel hybrid technology in the next 5, 10 or 15 years?

 

[AndrewE]

I would think it could be justified on the basis that it would remove the need for bi-mode trains, giving less initial expense and simplifying maintenance.

 

[jon0844]

I would think it could be justified on the basis that it would remove the need for bi-mode trains, giving less initial expense and simplifying maintenance.

But to put up all the wires and the associated equipment for what could only be 10 or 20 years wouldn't seem logical. Smaller/shorter routes are likely to be ideal for battery only operation (with the only equipment needed being charging stations along the way, or at each end). We're probably some way off for Intercity trains doing 125-200mph, at least in my lifetime.

 

[AndrewE]

The way the UK goes about things the pessimist in me wouldn't expect it to be wired up by then anyway. It's not as though is in the Greater London area, is it?
However, no matter how wonderful we are told that batteries are going to be I still don't think they will supercede OLE. If you have (presumably high voltage) charging stations at each end of a branch line and therefore the need for a transformer on board why not just run the trains on a continuously available power supply?
As has been said, the Windermere branch has a relatively low line-speed and power draw, so it can have just a trolley wire and minimalist elegant supports, and probably be simply fed off Oxenholme. Probably cheaper and quicker than waiting for battery technology and charging stations to mature too.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that rather than thinking of the Windermere branch as an isolated branch line, we should be thinking of it as an extension of the main line from Manchester. It's benefit is in bringing in tourists from the industrial North West and the airport directly to the area, and to have some bespoke technical fix with special trains and equipment at one end seems nonsensical, when it should be run as part of the outer reaches of the electrified network.

 

[tbtc]

If we can't wire up ten miles of (mainly) single track branch line (which would directly replace one DMU and enable through EMUs to Manchester/ Liverpool etc thus freeing up more diesels from running under the wires - and only needs wiring for cheap simple short low speed trains - no 92s hauling long heavy freight!) then we can forget about pretty much any other infrastructure scheme - this should be about as simple as it gets - if this is too complicated/expensive then forget about the "My Idea For..." threads.

 

[B&I]

I think that rather than thinking of the Windermere branch as an isolated branch line, we should be thinking of it as an extension of the main line from Manchester. It's benefit is in bringing in tourists from the industrial North West and the airport directly to the area, and to have some bespoke technical fix with special trains and equipment at one end seems nonsensical, when it should be run as part of the outer reaches of the electrified network.

And of we had anything likw integrated public transport, it would also be useful as a hub for buses to take people further into the Lakes

 

[yorksrob]

And of we had anything likw integrated public transport, it would also be useful as a hub for buses to take people further into the Lakes

Well, there is a fairly decent scale bus stop outside the station at Windermere - shame about the horrendous bus fares though !

 

[AndrewE]

And if we had anything like integrated public transport, it would also be useful as a hub for buses to take people further into the Lakes

Be realistic! We can't even run an integrated railway, so any hope of integrated public transport is just a pipe-dream. Besides, the current stupid, self-defeating, political dogma forbids it. It's not even worth buying a return bus ticket around here because a different operator runs the service in the evening!
Just remember it at the next General Election...

 

[jon0844]

Well, there is a fairly decent scale bus stop outside the station at Windermere - shame about the horrendous bus fares though !

Yeah. Even plusbus is stupid money. Normally £2 or 3 extra on a ticket, but about £7 extra there. What gives?!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And of we had anything likw integrated public transport, it would also be useful as a hub for buses to take people further into the Lakes

What, you mean like it actually is?

It'd integrate better if it was pure clockface (it's a bit off) - the better acceleration of EMUs would allow this to be done.

 

[squizzler]

According to my copy of Modern Railways, there are at least two ongoing projects on reducing the cost of rail electrification: Railway Industry Association "Electrification Cost Challenge and a Dept for Transport review led by Andrew McNaughton. Also it has been confirmed the Transpennine route modernisation will include full electrification.

Electrification is slowly returning back onto the agenda. Public resentment of Grayling's policies have led rail travellers to educate themselves on the effects of the recent electrification cutbacks. As a result the man in the street understands the benefits of electrification more than before and wants to see it on his own line. Putting all this together I think that the Windermere branch will be wired.

 

[yorksrob]

I saw an interesting article in NR's website about an innovative way to raise arch bridges, rather than have to rebuild them.

There was also mention in this months Modern Railways about the possibility if having short neutral sections through low bridges with the gap covered by battery power.

Both would reduce the need for expensive rebuilding work.

Of course, I suspect that low bridges aren't too much of a problem on the Windermere branch to begin with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't many problems on the branch at all. If you do it in winter you could even get away with a full closure to complete it in one go. It's about the simplest and cheapest electrification project imaginable, and possibly one with the most benefits too (Northern DMU shortage, DMU timetable not *quite* possible to be pure clockface, requirement for DMUs under the wires for all but about 10 miles of a much longer route).

 

[yorksrob]

There aren't many problems on the branch at all. If you do it in winter you could even get away with a full closure to complete it in one go. It's about the simplest and cheapest electrification project imaginable, and possibly one with the most benefits too (Northern DMU shortage, DMU timetable not *quite* possible to be pure clockface, requirement for DMUs under the wires for all but about 10 miles of a much longer route).

Lots of spare EMU's sitting around as well.

 

[edwin_m]

From the political point of view I think the consequence of reinstating this scheme would just be to remind voters of the anger caused when it was cancelled, so I don't think the Tories would reap much of a dividend and I doubt it will happen until a different party is in power or memories have faded.

 

[yorksrob]

Alternatively, they could announce it as an 'experiment' to see how electrification projects could be done more cheaply, and low and behold, when it miraculously comes in at much cheaper per mile than the Great Western one, everyone can pat eachother on the back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of spare EMU's sitting around as well.

Indeed. And it could save a DMU or three if you tweaked with the service taking advantage of that, such as running hourly Manchester Airport to Windermere and truncate the Barrows to Lancaster (which is much closer to the actual demand in my observation of using the lines; I've generally observed that the through Barrows carry next to nobody between Lancaster and Preston, there are mostly two separate flows they cater for, Barrow line to Lancaster (and on to London in some cases) and Preston to Manchester).

 

[Agent_Squash]

Indeed. And it could save a DMU or three if you tweaked with the service taking advantage of that, such as running hourly Manchester Airport to Windermere and truncate the Barrows to Lancaster (which is much closer to the actual demand in my observation of using the lines; I've generally observed that the through Barrows carry next to nobody between Lancaster and Preston, there are mostly two separate flows they cater for, Barrow line to Lancaster (and on to London in some cases) and Preston to Manchester).

While my usage of the line has seen much more demand for the airport usage than yours (many people avoid the train now because of the issues with Northern) - the next logical step would be electrification of the Furness line and remodelling of Barrow station as a better interchange between that line and the Cumbrian coast.

(The Windermere line may have more tourists, yes, but the Furness line has a commuter flow to some extent as well as more demand due to larger towns)

 

[Bletchleyite]

While my usage of the line has seen much more demand for the airport usage than yours (many people avoid the train now because of the issues with Northern) - the next logical step would be electrification of the Furness line and remodelling of Barrow station as a better interchange between that line and the Cumbrian coast.

That wouldn't be an utterly terrible idea, as it would then allow for my preferred method of operation - hourly Manchester Airport to both destinations (split/join at Lancaster) and back.

If Barrow was to become an interchange ideally the setup would be changed to allow cross-platform or even Ormskirk-style same platform interchange. The Coast would then be an ideal route for some 230s. Edit: looking at the station plan that would already be possible using platforms 2 and 3 as the main ones?

 

[northwichcat]

My guess is if electrification did sway voters it would actually be in favour of Tim Farron, given how much he's stood up for rail users in the area.

 

[northwichcat]

From the political point of view I think the consequence of reinstating this scheme would just be to remind voters of the anger caused when it was cancelled, so I don't think the Tories would reap much of a dividend and I doubt it will happen until a different party is in power or memories have faded.

The other problem is electrification will result in temporary closures so people will ask the question why couldn't the electrification be done when Northern were struggling to provide a service on the line, opposed to creating more temporary closures.

 

[Clip]

Is electrification really worth the money if the route could use all battery or battery/diesel hybrid technology in the next 5, 10 or 15 years?

yes it would be well worth it - not just from a passenger perspective in getting to the lakes from the north west or even down south directly but it would also be good for the environment in taking away a small bit of air pollution with getting rid of the diesels that currently work the line.

 

[yorksrob]

While my usage of the line has seen much more demand for the airport usage than yours (many people avoid the train now because of the issues with Northern) - the next logical step would be electrification of the Furness line and remodelling of Barrow station as a better interchange between that line and the Cumbrian coast.

(The Windermere line may have more tourists, yes, but the Furness line has a commuter flow to some extent as well as more demand due to larger towns)

Barrow would be longer and more difficult though. Better to start with something more bite size and manageable.

 

[yorksrob]

The other problem is electrification will result in temporary closures so people will ask the question why couldn't the electrification be done when Northern were struggling to provide a service on the line, opposed to creating more temporary closures.

That is an issue. One would hope that given the branch has a lower frequency than on many electrified lines, and was originally double track, so has a lot of lineside space, this would be easier to do with minimal closures.

 

[philjo]

Yeah. Even plusbus is stupid money. Normally £2 or 3 extra on a ticket, but about £7 extra there. What gives?!

The central lakes dayrider bought on the bus is £8.30 - though has a larger validity area than the plusbus.
The single cash fare from Windermere to Grasmere is nearly £7 so plusbus is still a large discount for doing a return journey or m,ore than one trip

 

[Agent_Squash]

Barrow would be longer and more difficult though. Better to start with something more bite size and manageable.

Should have stated that the Furness electrification would follow after Windermere.