Could we see more examples of Better bus / rail integration?

[tbtc]

There are quite a few stations where it would be almost impossible to determine which train the bus was connecting with anyway? My home town os a junction of 4 lines, with trains 3 per hour on one leg, 2 on 2 of the legs and 1ph on the fourth. Only the 1ph is a regular interval. Which train is the half or hourly bus service going to connecting with?

This is the problem

Even in a situation as simple as a station with one north-south train line and one east-west bus route, is the bus there to help with people doing north-to-east journeys or east-to-south journeys or south-to-west journeys or west-to-north journeys?

Because we aren't going to have situations where each station has both the northbound and southbound trains passing through at the same minute of each hour, and where all bus passengers will accept sitting there for at least ten minutes so that their east-west bus journey arrives five minutes before the trains and departs five minutes after the trains to ensure that there's sufficient connection time (assuming that no trains are ever late, because presumably buses would have to be "held" for them, even if there were existing passengers on the bus who were doing non-rail journeys)

And that's assuming that a five minute connection time is perfect for everyone. I've seen people justify reinstating the Leuchars to St Andrews railway line because the bus service doesn't connect very well with the trains, even though the 99s are were every eight minutes (plus around three journeys per hour from Leuchars to St Andrews on the 42/92/94/96s) - but then are we pathing the bus to suit the able bodied person who's already got a train ticket or the frail person walking slowly who needs to queue to purchase a train ticket?

So do we schedule the bus to arrive at the station fifteen minutes before the train is due, to leave stop for traffic congestion (since the train won't wait to accommodate a late bus, even though as assume that a bus must wait to accommodate a late train), even if that means bus passengers from east to west are sat there for twenty minutes (i.e. until the train has departed)?

Does it depend on what proportion of bus passengers are changing onto the train? Do we therefore cut the bus service to stop it "competing" with the train (e.g. the Buxton - Matlock - Derby bus has to be based around the train connections at Matlock and must terminate there to force people to switch)?

I think it really needs to be a case by case basis - there are some routes where it could work, but maybe more of the "day tripper" markets, where one dedicated coach might be very popular, rather than inconveniencing lots of bus passengers (e.g. the Derby to Alton Towers service), given that there might be a lot of bus passengers doing everyday simple journeys like from their home into the nearest town centre, rather than long distance connections onto trains

 

[Ken H]

Are TfW local trains and Trawscymru buses funded from the same integrated pot, with common management of the pot and 'one whole public transport' as their remit? I suspect that currently this pot is , in practical terms, managed separately between train and bus, even if the money is ultimately coming from the same place.

I did not, for one moment, suggest that funding both bus and rail from the same integrated pot would definitely get integration other than mere tokenism; but if there is not funding from the same integrated pot then definitely there won't be.

At least in the TfW/Trawscymru case there is the first steps towards enabling this integration, even if it is yet to happen in practical terms. Most other places in the UK the groundwork is far from being laid.

Mixed bag here in my bit of Yorkshire.
Leeds. Bus station a fair way from train station but many buses pass the station, or nearby City Square.
Bradford. Interchange is combined bus and train station, but not all buses use interchange. Forster Sq, poorly served by buses.
Harrogate. Bus stn next to train station
Knaresborough. Train and bus station a fair distance apart.
Keighley, Shipley, Skipton - Bus station a fair trek from train station
York. Many (most) buses serve the station.

Within Metro there are some good multi mode deals, but some daftnesses. Like you cant buy a day bus/train ticket on the bus, only from bus or train stations. North Yorkshire - absolutely nothing - but its North Yorkshire - nuff sed.

 

[D6975]

Has anyone actually bought one of these tickets yet? I tried looking up Newport-Aber and all I got was N/A for all fares.

 

[HSTEd]

Even in a situation as simple as a station with one north-south train line and one east-west bus route, is the bus there to help with people doing north-to-east journeys or east-to-south journeys or south-to-west journeys or west-to-north journeys?

Ultimately all we can do is drive frequencies as high as we can manage and hope that the connections people want to make in any particular case are relatively short, but not too short.

 

[biko]

Does it depend on what proportion of bus passengers are changing onto the train? Do we therefore cut the bus service to stop it "competing" with the train (e.g. the Buxton - Matlock - Derby bus has to be based around the train connections at Matlock and must terminate there to force people to switch)?

That’s the approach used in the Netherlands for lower-frequency lines. It is indeed impossible to connect onto all trains (except at the ‘node’ stations where all trains arrive and depart at the same time, such as Zutphen for example). Therefore the bus operators decide together with the provinces which connections are most important and logical.

Competing buses have been reduced a lot over the last years as they don’t make sense in an integrated system. The only reason they remain is if they serve other villages than the trains do or if they serve another area of a city than where the station is. So it’s more like an addition than full competition.

For the UK, this would also be a good idea because it makes the country as a whole a lot more connected by public transport. But I think the difficulty is in the fact that commercial operators don’t have the incentive to not compete with the railway.

 

[DelW]

Are TfW local trains and Trawscymru buses funded from the same integrated pot, with common management of the pot and 'one whole public transport' as their remit? I suspect that currently this pot is , in practical terms, managed separately between train and bus, even if the money is ultimately coming from the same place.

I don't know how TfW is organised financially, but you may well be right that rail and bus are separate entities within it.

At least in the TfW/Trawscymru case there is the first steps towards enabling this integration, even if it is yet to happen in practical terms. Most other places in the UK the groundwork is far from being laid.

Agreed - I'd very much like to see a successful integration in Wales, not just because it would be useful when I'm visiting, but also because it might provide a model for similar initiatives in England and Scotland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know how TfW is organised financially, but you may well be right that rail and bus are separate entities within it.

Agreed - I'd very much like to see a successful integration in Wales, not just because it would be useful when I'm visiting, but also because it might provide a model for similar initiatives in England and Scotland.

Certainly for rural type routes. The first place to look is the Snowdon Sherpa network, which isn't even integrated within itself, let alone to rail.

 

[Robertj21a]

The key is the funding. Unless one organisation has access to the funds needed to operate *both* the trains and buses as they wish then nothing will work properly.

 

[leytongabriel]

Through ticketing Barnstaple - Ilfracombe might be a good candidate and
the Devon county council proposal for a new Tiverton Junction - South Molton - Umberleigh - Torrington .... bus route.
Perhaps Matlock - Bakewell - Buxton and Chesterfield - Bakewell too.

 

[vlad]

Through ticketing...
Perhaps Matlock - Bakewell - Buxton

Technically that already exists as the Matlock/Buxton Plusbus. It's a large area that technically includes Glossop and much of the Hope Valley Line although I've no idea whether it's possible to get a Plusbus ticket from any of the other stations.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The Skipton to Colne, Skipton to Clitheroe and Keighley to Colne bus routes could be usefully integrated with the rail network (pending the reopening of the Skipton to Colne line, if it ever happens). However the last attempt to do so with the East Lancashire Day Ranger ticket apparently didn’t drum much trade.

 

[30907]

The Skipton to Colne, Skipton to Clitheroe and Keighley to Colne bus routes could be usefully integrated with the rail network (pending the reopening of the Skipton to Colne line, if it ever happens).

Except at Keighley, the stops are adjacent or very close, though a slight issue is that neither Clitheroe nor Colne (nor Nelson which is a better interchange than Colne IIRC), is the terminus of the bus route, making it difficult to orientate the timetables around the hourly train services.
That wouldn't prevent integrated ticketing, of course...

 

[stuu]

Minehead - Taunton

Taunton-Minehead buses are shown on the departure screens and Minehead is available as a ticket option on GWR/NRE. For some reason no intermediate locations are available through

The recent station rebuilding will mean, when finished, the buses stop alongside platform 2 sharing the canopy over the platform.

If it can be done in Taunton why doesn't it happen in many more places?

 

[lachlan]

Thurso to Scrabster, should be easy to make the bus meet the four trains per day. I read somewhere else that the bus company deliberately makes connections impossible to force people to use the bus all the way from Inverness

 

[adrock1976]

Thurso to Scrabster, should be easy to make the bus meet the four trains per day. I read somewhere else that the bus company deliberately makes connections impossible to force people to use the bus all the way from Inverness

This is one of those unusual situations in that the whole route from Inverness to Thurso/Wick/Scrabster is much shorter by road than the railway line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Skipton to Colne, Skipton to Clitheroe and Keighley to Colne bus routes could be usefully integrated with the rail network (pending the reopening of the Skipton to Colne line, if it ever happens). However the last attempt to do so with the East Lancashire Day Ranger ticket apparently didn’t drum much trade.

Rangers and Rovers are niche. If you want it to work it has to come up on the journey planners and be sold as a through e-ticket. If it doesn't do both of those it will be irrelevant to most.