Could we see 777 units on TfW's Borderlands line?

[AL1]

Moderator note: Split from

Transport for Wales Class 230

230 gone awol again after being 30 minutes late on the 1135 from Wrexham today. Sorry to report again i’m not trying to be negative so if anyone feels that it’s not necessary then i will stop. Wow obviously people are fed up with it all now because it’s been tucked away in a different topic area

www.railforums.co.uk

There is an updated track access consultation from TfW for the Bidston to Wrexham service ( see Network Rail Sale of Access Rights).

The consultation also outlines some initial work being undertaken on dealing with Padeswood, and what needs to happen for 777 units to be extended along the line . There’s not a huge amount of detail , but good to see more work is underway .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The consultation also outlines some initial work being undertaken on dealing with Padeswood, and what needs to happen for 777 units to be extended along the line . There’s not a huge amount of detail , but good to see more work is underway .

So is serious consideration being given to Class 777 units on the Borderlands line by TfW, who will have to bear the cost for any works which will allow that aspiration to happen.

 

[anthony263]

There is an updated track access consultation from TfW for the Bidston to Wrexham service ( see Network Rail Sale of Access Rights).

The consultation also outlines some initial work being undertaken on dealing with Padeswood, and what needs to happen for 777 units to be extended along the line . There’s not a huge amount of detail , but good to see more work is underway .

Any link?

 

[DavidGrain]

Does anyone know the range of 777s working on battery?

 

[WirralLine]

I heard some talks were going on within Merseyrail/Merseytravel/LCR/TfW regarding extensions to 777 battery operations a few weeks ago so presumably it wasn't just rumour afterall.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The consultation also outlines some initial work being undertaken on dealing with Padeswood, and what needs to happen for 777 units to be extended along the line .

Unless I'm missing something obvious it does neither. All I can see is:

TfW is currently working with Mott MacDonald on the early development of potential interventions for the Wrexham – Bidston Line. This work includes:
• A new entrance to Padeswood Cement Works
• Signalling improvements for the line
• Interventions needed to extend the Class 777s south from Liverpool onto the Wrexham – Bidston Line

It doesn't outline any initial work, it just states some initial work for potential developments is taking place.

 

[Bob Price]

I thought the concept of using 777's relied either on third rail being laid on part of the route or fast charge facilities being installed at one of the Wrexham stations. The 230 trial at Ealing seems to be going well so I wonder if they are working on that basis? I also wonder if TfW will get their own 777's (778's?) for that route?

 

[John R]

All this talk of 777s being used in the future as an antidote to the 230s feels a bit ironic given that the reliability of them atm is shockingly bad.

 

[Bertie the bus]

All this talk of 777s being used in the future as an antidote to the 230s feels a bit ironic given that the reliability of them atm is shockingly bad.

Just the criteria TfW look for in a train.

 

[Ribbleman]

Bidston-Wrexham is one of the first two routes to be selected by Merseytravel to be reviewed by external consultants with a view to extending the operation of Class 777 units. The other being Ellesmere Port to Helsby/Runcorn East/Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[Prime586]

I thought the concept of using 777's relied either on third rail being laid on part of the route or fast charge facilities being installed at one of the Wrexham stations. The 230 trial at Ealing seems to be going well so I wonder if they are working on that basis? I also wonder if TfW will get their own 777's (778's?) for that route?

The 777/1s currently have no fast charging capability. It would require Stadler to licence the technology from GWR and their partners (which may also be dependent on the particular battery chemistry GWR are using, which may not be the same as that used on the 777/1s) and then retrofitting it into 777s used on that route (presumably becoming 777/2s?). This would also give Stadler the opportunity to mess up the software again.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 777/1s currently have no fast charging capability. It would require Stadler to licence the technology from GWR and their partners (which may also be dependent on the particular battery chemistry GWR are using, which may not be the same as that used on the 777/1s) and then retrofitting it into 777s used on that route (presumably becoming 777/2s?). This would also give Stadler the opportunity to mess up the software again.

For the numbers involved, would Stadler really consider the licencing of technology from GWR?

 

[Prime586]

For the numbers involved, would Stadler really consider the licencing of technology from GWR?

The alternative is for Stadler to develop their own third rail DC-based fast charging system. For the FLIRT Akkus they built for Schleswig-Holstein (which also had a troubled introduction into service due to software issues) they partnered with Ferrer & Frey, who developed the VoltTap 15/25kV AC pantograph-based fast charging system for them.

 

[John R]

The alternative is for Stadler to develop their own third rail DC-based fast charging system. For the FLIRT Akkus they built for Schleswig-Holstein (which also had a troubled introduction into service due to software issues) they partnered with Ferrer & Frey, who developed the VoltTap 15/25kV AC pantograph-based fast charging system for them.

Would they bother doing that if most of the possible extensions in the Mersey area could be within range of the existing batteries? Seems a lot of work and cost, which presumably TfW would have to pay for.

 

[Steve B]

Would they bother doing that if most of the possible extensions in the Mersey area could be within range of the existing batteries? Seems a lot of work and cost, which presumably TfW would have to pay for.

If the Borderlands line was to become integrated into the Merseyrail network then I think it more sensible for them to take over the line from TFW. Frankly I don't see that happening - a more likely scenario would be for MR trains to work part way, let's say to Neston or Shotton, leaving TFW to operate the rest. Not ideal.

I expect that there will be a lot of talk, maybe feasibility studies etc, but things will remain the same for years to come....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the Borderlands line was to become integrated into the Merseyrail network then I think it more sensible for them to take over the line from TFW.

Would certain sections in the Welsh government not be in favour of such a thing?

 

[8H]

The whole concept of privatisation era TOC areas and services is redundant anyway. However this if only the Borderlands route wasn’t in Wales at all argument is a red herring. There is a lot of cooperation between the responsible authorities in Wales and in England to improve the service. This will happen, and on a route for which nothing has really happened of any consequence for decades that is progress!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The whole concept of privatisation era TOC areas and services is redundant anyway. However this if only the Borderlands route wasn’t in Wales at all argument is a red herring. There is a lot of cooperation between the responsible authorities in Wales and in England to improve the service. This will happen, and on a route for which nothing has really happened of any consequence for decades that is progress!

Would you agree that the major station on this line is a Welsh one and the English stations are small in comparison to it

 

[8H]

Would you agree that the major station on this line is a Welsh one and the English stations are small in comparison to it

I suppose the much larger potential with the route is more frequent and quicker public transport from North Wales Coast stations to Wirral and “Over the Water” and thus fewer car journeys. Connectivity at Wrexham and originating journeys there as well as better interchange at Shotton are both critical to this. Leisure and work journeys are both made in big numbers from Wales to Merseyside as the heaving road network reveals. As the traditional quickest rail route via Chester and Rock Ferry seems destined to remain an all stations trundle a development of Borderlands seems the best alternative and benefits both Wales and England.

 

[Prime586]

Would they bother doing that if most of the possible extensions in the Mersey area could be within range of the existing batteries? Seems a lot of work and cost, which presumably TfW would have to pay for.

It may be within range for a fully-charged 777/1 to make it from Bidston to Wrexham and back in one trip. However, depending on how long it's subsequent route on third rail is (where the available current is being used primarily to power the train with the excess going into the batteries until they are fully charged), it may not have been sufficiently recharged to make a second trip.

The Scheswig-Holstein FLIRT Akkus need the VoltTap remote charging stations to cover the parts of the network where there are no wires (the longest route they have without catenary is 80km, with the trains having a 150km quoted range on battery power) and 15 or 25kV AC catenary is a far more efficient way to deliver charging current than 750V DC third rail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suppose the much larger potential with the route is more frequent and quicker public transport from North Wales Coast stations to Wirral and “Over the Water” and thus fewer car journeys. Connectivity at Wrexham and originating journeys there as well as better interchange at Shotton are both critical to this. Leisure and work journeys are both made in big numbers from Wales to Merseyside as the heaving road network reveals. As the traditional quickest rail route via Chester and Rock Ferry seems destined to remain an all stations trundle a development of Borderlands seems the best alternative and benefits both Wales and England.

Are you aware that Wrexham is a large settlement with a university and a population circa 45,000 and the main city in Wrexham County Borough that this line feeds from a number of stations in Wales?

Merseyside already has a direct 3rd rail route to Chester that passes through settlements down the Wirral peninsula.

 

[Djgr]

Would you agree that the major station on this line is a Welsh one and the English stations are small in comparison to it

The journey flows on this line are quite complex.

There are modest numbers travelling from the English Wirral stations into Liverpool, joined with more significant numbers at the weekend from the Welsh stations.

There are reasonable numbers travelling into Wrexham from the 3 or 4 most southerly Welsh stations.

There is some traffic (mainly with bikes) into Hawarden Bridge to and from Deeside industrial Park for work.

There is also some schools traffic swap over to and from Heswall and Neston, given the rather complicated Grammar School Wirral/comprehensive Cheshire scenario.

There is some High Level/Low Level interchange at Shotton but mainly train nerds and Shotton's North Wales Coast service has always lagged behind other stations (e.g. Fflint) for no obvious reason.

 

[Northerngirl]

The journey flows on this line are quite complex.

There are modest numbers travelling from the English Wirral stations into Liverpool, joined with more significant numbers at the weekend from the Welsh stations.

There are reasonable numbers travelling into Wrexham from the 3 or 4 most southerly Welsh stations.

There is some traffic (mainly with bikes) into Hawarden Bridge to and from Deeside industrial Park for work.

There is also some schools traffic swap over to and from Heswall and Neston, given the rather complicated Grammar School Wirral/comprehensive Cheshire scenario.

There is some High Level/Low Level interchange at Shotton but mainly train nerds and Shotton's North Wales Coast service has always lagged behind other stations (e.g. Fflint) for no obvious reason.

I think the wirral to Liverpool is so low as buses are a cheaer & faster option from all of the 3 stations

The Heswall - Neston school traffic is definitely vastly understated, I know a few people that actually buy a ticket about once a month despite using it every day, as the guard never comes round.

I think both would increase quite a bit if it was frequent & direct to Liverpool

 

[Steve B]

There is also school traffic to/from Hope as well at the southern part of the line. I don't know what the local arrangements are in those areas but in Shropshire pupils are often given train passes to cover their journeys, so no tickets would be required. Probably need checking from time to time though...

 

[8H]

Are you aware that Wrexham is a large settlement with a university and a population circa 45,000 and the main city in Wrexham County Borough that this line feeds from a number of stations in Wales?

Merseyside already has a direct 3rd rail route to Chester that passes through settlements down the Wirral peninsula.

Thoughtful and positive posts on this subject, especially existing flows and future potential. Service improvements essential but attractive multi modal multi operator ticketing would also help the attractiveness of rail supplant buses dominance at the Wirral peninsular end of things where an administrative boundary breaks the ticketing continuity awkwardly with Cheshire West and Wirral councils separating the geographical Wirral.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Would Merseyrail really take over a line outside their network in another country & jurisdiction, it would really complicate matters if Wales, even unlikely, puts in a physical border? But as with the coronavirus lockdown, the eastern Flintshire conurbation was briefly cut off from Chester, its nearest largest urban centre.

Realistically, the Borderlands line to stay under Welsh control with Merseyrail extending its service over it, running alongside those of TFW.

As suggested on here, TFW could have their own Stadler Metros or convert the 230s to battery power and run alongside the Merseyrail 777s they do run on the line in the future.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Unless I'm missing something obvious it does neither. All I can see is:

TfW is currently working with Mott MacDonald on the early development of potential interventions for the Wrexham – Bidston Line. This work includes:
• A new entrance to Padeswood Cement Works
• Signalling improvements for the line
• Interventions needed to extend the Class 777s south from Liverpool onto the Wrexham – Bidston Line

It doesn't outline any initial work, it just states some initial work for potential developments is taking place.

I think these three things are separate, not connected.
Padeswood is about freight movements at Penyffordd, and depends on cement contracts.
Manual signalling is restrictive and capacity could be increased with IBS and other interventions.
Chester and Cardiff would have to fight it out for the implementation (Chester controls as far as Connah's Quay on the coast line, Cardiff controls further west).
Class 777s might usefully operate on battery over the northern Wirral section (say, to Heswall or Neston).
I can't see them taking over the whole service, which is still poorly-patronised for the costs involved.

 

[Djgr]

But as with the coronavirus lockdown, the eastern Flintshire conurbation was briefly cut off from Chester, its nearest largest urban centre.

...and even worse, part of the Chester urban area is actually in Wales.

Famously Chester's football stadium straddles the border, which caused no end of problems during lockdown.

Another complication, which many ignore, is that Merseyrail's area on the Borderlands line (more correctly Liverpool City Region's) does not adjoin Wales, with a few miles of Cheshire in-between, a county not renowned for putting its hand in its pocket for railway projects.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I think these three things are separate, not connected.

Separate and not connected to what? That text was copied from the mentioned document and are the only times either project is mentioned in it. Feel free to copy what you consider relevant from the consultation document.

Realistically, the Borderlands line to stay under Welsh control with Merseyrail extending its service over it, running alongside those of TFW.

As suggested on here, TFW could have their own Stadler Metros or convert the 230s to battery power and run alongside the Merseyrail 777s they do run on the line in the future.

That isn't going to happen. Firstly there isn't the demand for such a frequency of services and secondly the only possible benefit of 777s taking over services would be they continue from Bidston into Liverpool which would only happen if Merseyrail took over the service.

 

[HSTEd]

If a Merseyrail service was put onto the Borderlands line, it would realistically usurp the vast majority of the traffic on the section of the route that it operated over.

Transport for Wales running alongside it would just be shovelling even more money onto a bonfire than now. The line is essentially a longer version of the segment between Wigan and Headbolt Lane.
If the segment in England was taken over and a TfW shuttle was left south of Shotton, it make the situation for the Welsh segment even worse.

The sensible option here, as far as I see it, has to be just run Merseyrail to Wrexham Central, with some financial contribution and a guaranteed timetable to be provided by Merseyrail.
Anything else would appear to be little more than fragmentation for the sake of a line on a map.