Could this work?

[150222]

After the lancs triangle is electrified could north tpe, harrogate, LEEDS-YORK and the calder valley also be done? The 357's could come up north (replaced by 379's or similar on c2c) supplimenting the 333's and 321/322's. The 323's could then be sent to birmingham. This would allow fgw to have all the 319's allowing use on electrified bristol or cardiff lines. The 59 additional emu's (inc. the 17 lost 323's) in the north then that could remove a good proportion of pacers. This would give mass electrification and capacity benefits to 3 operators. Could this work if the dft were sensible or is it over the top?

 

[Nym]

It would be sensible, but to ensure maximum capacity you would need to have platform extentions all over the place, the network is tuned in many places for 2x3x23m operation, even with SDO, you have the problems of blocking junctions at Manchester Oxford Road, Salford Crescent (Windsor Bridge Junction), and Castlefeild Junction (8 car unit calling).

If extensions are put into place at Manchester Oxford Road and Salford Crescent re-built this would be a very reasonable plan, do the 357s have SDO though?

 

[OxtedL]

Bear in mind that North TPE and Leeds-York are theoretically sort-of-maybe-perhaps already on the table.

Moving the 357s would be wasteful, they're fine where they are.

Otherwise, what you say seems broadly sensible but unlikely in the form you have given it, as so many things will happen between now and the completion of any such scheme that planning that thoroughly is a bit futile. There are many other ways of chucking stock around, just see any other thread on the subject (there must be at least 5 now).

I would question how high up the electrification priorities Calder Valley should be, but then we're already booked up as a country electrification wise to 2020 it seems, so not a worry for the immediate future. It must pass through some marginal seats of some kind ...

 

[90019]

Why replace the 357s?

Just send the new stock North and leave them be. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and all that.

 

[DesiroDom]

I think it could work but I cant see Class 357's leaving c2c and coming up North even if they were offered the 379. I would like that to happen for obvious reasons.

 

[Nym]

Why replace the 357s?

Just send the new stock North and leave them be. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and all that.

If ordering new stock for the North, the sensible option would be 3 car EMUs, thanks to the setup of platforms round here, 3x23m car would be nice.

(Not 380s at all... heh)

 

[DesiroDom]

If ordering new stock for the North, the sensible option would be 3 car EMUs, thanks to the setup of platforms round here, 3x23m car would be nice.

(Not 380s at all... heh)

Yeah that would be nice but probably wont happen sadly

 

[150222]

I said 357's as i think someone on this forum said that corridor connected emu's worked better around london (where they ofton work in 8 or 12 car formations) and up north they would largely operate as single units. Also it seemed like a good number and if london get new stock the dft will oblige.

 

[OxtedL]

I would agree with that thinking, but I think all/most platforms on c2c are 12-car, and any that aren't are certainly penned in for lengthening. Also iirc, c2c is DOO (I haven't checked this), so there's limited benefit for them in having corridor connections from this point of view. It's just something else to go wrong when coupling etc.

Sensible thought process, though.

 

[tbtc]

Moving the 357s would be wasteful, they're fine where they are

Bearing in mind that northern England will need dozens of additional EMUs in the next few years, that C2C were wanting additional EMUs (on top of their existing fleet of 357s)... there's some logic in C2C getting eighty-something 379s (for example).

 

[Ivo]

I would agree with that thinking, but I think all/most platforms on c2c are 12-car, and any that aren't are certainly penned in for lengthening. Also iirc, c2c is DOO (I haven't checked this), so there's limited benefit for them in having corridor connections from this point of view. It's just something else to go wrong when coupling etc.

Sensible thought process, though.

I haven't seen even an RPI, never mind anything else, on a c2c train for 5½ years. Exclusively DOO.

 

[DesiroDom]

Bearing in mind that northern England will need dozens of additional EMUs in the next few years, that C2C were wanting additional EMUs (on top of their existing fleet of 357s)... there's some logic in C2C getting eighty-something 379s (for example).

Allowing the 142's to be freed up and more decent trains up to Newcastle's Heaton depot. I can dream right?

 

[tbtc]

Allowing the 142's to be freed up and more decent trains up to Newcastle's Heaton depot. I can dream right?

The 357s would blow the current piecemeal EMU cascades out of the water, there are enough of them to cover all of the newly electrified lines plus to give LM the remainder of the 323s.

That'd ensure Heaton got more 156s etc, which are more appropriate for services like Newcastle - Carlisle, Hexham - Middlesbrough

 

[87015]

I haven't seen even an RPI, never mind anything else, on a c2c train for 5½ years. Exclusively DOO.

c2c can only run DOO passenger trains formed of 4 and 8 cars - all 12 car passenger trains have a 'train captain' who operates the doors. Said train captains then do revenue and other duties as required when not doing the doors - which is generally the other half of their shifts going contra-peak.

Moving the 357s up north sounds like the sort of top-heavy plan that most on here slag off the DfT for at every opportunity though.

 

[DesiroDom]

The 357s would blow the current piecemeal EMU cascades out of the water, there are enough of them to cover all of the newly electrified lines plus to give LM the remainder of the 323s.

That'd ensure Heaton got more 156s etc, which are more appropriate for services like Newcastle - Carlisle, Hexham - Middlesbrough

All of Heaton's 156's are going to Newton Heath now the FGW 142's are back sadly

 

[sprinterguy]

All of Heaton's 156's are going to Newton Heath now the FGW 142's are back sadly

Who told you that? I view that as extremely unlikely, not least because there are insufficient 142s being returned from FGW to replace the Heaton 156s, even if they were all moving to Heaton, which they aren't, and it looks like that even out of the four that are reported to be moving to Heaton, only one is going to be used for strengthening services in Tyne and Wear.

 

[jopsuk]

The only reason to move the 357s anywhere would be so that the c2c fleet could be expanded without having more than one stock type in service on the line- this is, after all, one of the key features that helps their stunning service reliability. I'm sure if you could get a fleet of 80-90 four car EMUs built, run-in and all their drivers trained on them, then and only then would c2c be happy to let anything else loose on the LTS

 

[tbtc]

The only reason to move the 357s anywhere would be so that the c2c fleet could be expanded without having more than one stock type in service on the line- this is, after all, one of the key features that helps their stunning service reliability. I'm sure if you could get a fleet of 80-90 four car EMUs built, run-in and all their drivers trained on them, then and only then would c2c be happy to let anything else loose on the LTS

That would be a pre requisite. C2C were certainly trying to get additional EMUs (the LM 321s were rumoured at one stage IIRC?), but additional EMUs would bring the complication of running more than one type.

Getting a large order (80+) of an established EMU type like 379s would resolve this.

 

[Nym]

The same could be said for ordering 130 Class 380s for Northern...