Could the Railways Work Like Airlines?

[whhistle]

Not on the whole but I wonder if A to B (no stopping elsewhere) could work for places like Edinburgh to London.
Forgetting pathing (as they would be additional services, not replacements) and suitable stock for a moment; it would probably be advance booking only.
Sounds a bit like Richard Branson but if you can fill a train at Edinburgh for London, why bother to stop elsewhere?

Or are people transfixed on flying those distances?

 

[yorkie]

... if you can fill a train at Edinburgh for London...

You could fill a short train, yes.

So in theory, given unlimited platform availability at Waverley and King's Cross and unlimited pathing availability at all intermediate points, your idea could happen.

But, as we don't have those things, it isn't a sensible thing to do.

As it is, arguably the railway already acts as an airline where practicable/sensible, e.g. Yorkshire to London non-stop with prices that require all leisure passengers to book in advance.

Or are people transfixed on flying those distances?

Plenty of people do travel by train between Edinburgh and London.

 

[edwin_m]

Planes used on domestic flights have no more than 200 seats whereas intercity trains have 500 or more. Larger planes are available but have longer loading times and the number of passengers is better matched to a small plane flying more often.

For a plane to make an intermediate stop costs an hour or more when taxiiing and un/loading of people and baggage is taken into account. Stopping a train intermediately costs a few minutes.

If a plane lands, it doesn't impede other planes continuing their journeys. A train making a stop will impede other non-stopping trains, unless the station in question has through tracks for overtaking.

For all these reasons trains tend to be large and make several stops on their journeys, planes are smaller and overwhelmingly point-to-point.

 

[sprunt]

Isn't there a prospective open access company planning to do exactly this? I'm sure I've seen it discussed on here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't there a prospective open access company planning to do exactly this? I'm sure I've seen it discussed on here.

The FirstGroup proposal isn't non stop.

In reality it's more of "why don't planes stop", and the answer is because it takes so much time to do so. There are actually a small number of them that do, though.

 

[Ianno87]

The FirstGroup proposal isn't non stop.

In reality it's more of "why don't planes stop", and the answer is because it takes so much time to do so. There are actually a small number of them that do, though.

"Gate 9 for the oh-nine thirty Britsh Airways service to Edinburgh Turnhouse. Calling at Birmingham Elmdon, Manchester Ringway, Leeds Bradford Yeadon, Newcastle and Edinburgh Turnhouse. Due to arrive Edinburgh at seventeen forty-five."

 

[Bald Rick]

The time penalty for calling at some stations is relatively small, eg at York, Newcastle, Preston and Carlisle a non stop train saves only 3 minutes compared to one that calls because the linespeed is so low. For the sake of (say) 3 minutes on a 4hr+ journey, it offers the potential of picking up much more revenue. There’s also the matter of driving time and crew hours.

 

[tasky]

Isn't this to an extent what some HS2 services are going to do? High-demand city pairs

 

[edwin_m]

Isn't this to an extent what some HS2 services are going to do? High-demand city pairs

Yes to quite a large extent. Obviously only possible for the largest city pairs that can sustain several trains per hour each with 500 or more seats so basically London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. Other trains serve multiple smaller cities.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Isn't this to an extent what some HS2 services are going to do? High-demand city pairs

High speed rail is basically a slow, low airline.

 

[MarkyT]

Isn't this to an extent what some HS2 services are going to do? High-demand city pairs

To an extent yes as others have said, but remember also that all HS2 services are planned to stop at Old Oak Common, about 5 miles from Euston. That'll be like a BA jet leaving terminal 5, then taxiiing down to the east end of the runway and calling at another gate situated in the maintenance complex near Hatton Cross before taking off!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To an extent yes as others have said, but remember also that all HS2 services are planned to stop at Old Oak Common, about 5 miles from Euston. That'll be like a BA jet leaving terminal 5, then taxiiing down to the east end of the runway and calling at another gate situated in the maintenance complex near Hatton Cross before taking off!

Those who have ever taken off from or landed on the Polderbaan "at" Schiphol (pretty much in Hoofddorp) may well consider this a good idea!

 

[Highlandspring]

I once flew from Aberdeen to Stansted on an AirUK (remember them?) BAe 146 with an intermediate passenger stop at Newcastle.

 

[EssexGonzo]

And we can't ignore pricing. Maybe its a perception, but I always seem to think that if I book a little in advance and avoid peak times, Easyjet will always beat LNER/VTWC to Scotland price-wise.

Nor can we ignore perceived prestige / status that some business people attach to flying. Many get on a train to go to work every day. So when they fly somewhere they feel "special" and like to tell their colleagues/mates/family/anyone who will listen that they're doing so. It's a strange observation given that short haul flying is a pain in the butt but I've worked among many of these people.

 

[furnessvale]

I once flew from Aberdeen to Stansted on an AirUK (remember them?) BAe 146 with an intermediate passenger stop at Newcastle.

Flew from Canada to Heathrow years ago but found out the plane was stopping at Prestwick en route. Managed to change things to get off there. Bet you couldn't do that these days with increased security etc.!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Flew from Canada to Heathrow years ago but found out the plane was stopping at Prestwick en route. Managed to change things to get off there. Bet you couldn't do that these days with increased security etc.!

If it was a revenue stop I don't see why not, but I imagine it'd cost you.

Not a lot to stop you if you only had hand luggage anyway.

 

[TRAX]

If it was a revenue stop I don't see why not

Because of the threat that a terrorist could plant a bomb on a plane in his hold luggage, then leave the plane with the luggage still on board when it takes off again. This modus operandi has happened before.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I am travelling from Glasgow to Croydon next week and it actually worked out cheaper than air for once, one expense that swung it was the £55 charge for parking for three days at Glasgow Airport, being over 60 I can travel from home to Glasgow Central in the bus for nothing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because of the threat that a terrorist could plant a bomb on a plane in his hold luggage, then leave the plane with the luggage still on board when it takes off again. This modus operandi has happened before.

The "it'll cost you" implied that you asked permission to do so and paid any change in fare. So your luggage would be unloaded in the correct place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am travelling from Glasgow to Croydon next week and it actually worked out cheaper than air for once, one expense that swung it was the £55 charge for parking for three days at Glasgow Airport, being over 60 I can travel from home to Glasgow Central in the bus for nothing!

Can't you also go on the bus to Glasgow Airport for nothing?

 

[d9009alycidon]

Can't you also go on the bus to Glasgow Airport for nothing?

I would need to get into the city centre then take the service bus to the airport, the concession card is not valid on the express. Besides, I want to take the train! I haven't done the full length of the WCML since the 1980s and it is a first class ticket so complementary munchies, coffee and drinks - you have to pay for that on BA now!

 

[Bald Rick]

Nor can we ignore perceived prestige / status that some business people attach to flying. Many get on a train to go to work every day. So when they fly somewhere they feel "special" and like to tell their colleagues/mates/family/anyone who will listen that they're doing so. It's a strange observation given that short haul flying is a pain in the butt but I've worked among many of these people.

I think the prestige of flying, especially domestically, is much diminished compared to even 10 years ago. Partly because it is so easy to do now, and so cheap.

Indeed I would argue that for longer distance trips, eg London - Scotland, there is a prestige on catching the train. It is unquestionably a more comfortable environment, and usually more expensive. But saying “oh I got the train” will show that you are prepared to pay more for that comfort, compared to being wedged into a A319.

 

[B&I]

Funny how railways operating point to point like airlines is a ludicrous idea on the conventional network, but when something similar is proposed via HS2 it becomes An Unquestionnably Good Thing

 

[MarkyT]

Funny how railways operating point to point like airlines is a ludicrous idea on the conventional network, but when something similar is proposed via HS2 it becomes An Unquestionnably Good Thing

I don't really understand your point given that 1. all HS2 trains are all intended to stop at OOC and 2. A fair number of services will call at Birmingham Interchange, East Midlands Hub or Crewe en-route to other destinations. The core trunk network is designed for such a pattern, to get the best out of the train performance at maximum capacity with a simple twin track layout.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Because of the threat that a terrorist could plant a bomb on a plane in his hold luggage, then leave the plane with the luggage still on board when it takes off again. This modus operandi has happened before.

I've never quite understood how this is supposed to work - one would have thought that the bomb would have been intercepted by the security checks at the airport. Especially in the current environment where continued survival of the terrorist is optional!

There are, I believe, flights from London City to New York that stop for fuel at Shannon, but return non-stop. With enough fuel on to cross the Atlantic, they end up in the Thames or Canary Wharf.

 

[edwin_m]

Also the hold luggage checked in by someone leaving the flight at an intermediate stop would also be removed at that stop. So that would only work if they managed to leave the flight before their intended destination, without this being noticed.

There have been cases of someone planting a bomb in the cabin then leaving the flight at an intermediate stop, for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Airlines_Flight_434

The bombing was a part of the unsuccessful Bojinka terrorist attacks. The Boeing 747 (tail number EI-BWF) was flying the second leg of a route from Ninoy Aquino International Airport (formerly Manila International Airport), Pasay City in the Philippines, to Narita International Airport, in Tokyo, Japan, with a stop at Mactan–Cebu International Airport, Cebu, in the Philippines. After the bomb detonated, 57-year-old veteran pilot Captain Eduardo "Ed" Reyes was able to land the aircraft, saving it and the remaining passengers and crew.[1]

Authorities later discovered that Ramzi Yousef, a passenger on the aircraft's prior flight leg, had placed the explosive.

Aircraft bombings have become rare in recent years. I think this is down to better security, as there are still plenty of people out there who would want to bomb an aircaft.

 

[big all]

I think the prestige of flying, especially domestically, is much diminished compared to even 10 years ago. Partly because it is so easy to do now, and so cheap.

Indeed I would argue that for longer distance trips, eg London - Scotland, there is a prestige on catching the train. It is unquestionably a more comfortable environment, and usually more expensive. But saying “oh I got the train” will show that you are prepared to pay more for that comfort, compared to being wedged into a A319.

prestige dosnt exist unless what other people think bothers you
do what you want to and iff your fair honest and considerate to others what they think is there problem
i have never lived my life for other people and never will

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps a slightly different way of putting it might be that many people used to look forward to a flight as a rare experience that would be fairly comfortable and where they would be pampered with "free" drinks and meal etc (included in the price but if on business the employer was paying anyway). That's still partly true for long haul but the advent of low-cost airlines (and the attempts by the established airlines to compete) means short-haul flying is now much less rare, but many people see it as a humiliation to be endured rather than any sort of luxury.