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Could the Heart of Wales timetable be improved?

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70014IronDuke

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It would be hard put in an exact reinstatement. For a variety of reasons crew exchanges on crossing trains needs to take place at Llandrindrod and not Llanwrtyd.
It's good news - on paper at least - that they are to bring back 5 trains a day. I assume that means 5 through trains, but as you write, crew changes need to take place at Llandod. (I can see why, failure of the oncoming service to arrive for whatever reason means abandonning pax at Llanwrtyd, which is pretty remote and unwelcoming outside summer-sunshine daytime.)

The key issue is reliability: pax need to feel pretty sure the train will turn up more-or-less on time for there to be any recovery of numbers. Even last year, with the 5-train service, exits and entrance numbers was still down on pre-Covid times at most stops. And the line will surely lose more pax with the current timetable.

I do wonder if it might not be better to keep four through trains per day and run an extra one or two at each end of the route, giving the more populated station areas a usable commuter service serving Llanelli-Swansea and Church Stretton-Shrewsbury
 
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Dai Corner

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I do wonder if it might not be better to keep four through trains per day and run an extra one or two at each end of the route, giving the more populated station areas a usable commuter service serving Llanelli-Swansea and Church Stretton-Shrewsbury
Operationally and commercially it would, but it wouldn't meet the political objective which is helping to securing the vote of the Mid and West Wales MS.
 

Jez

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They would be better just sticking to 4 through workings a day to meet the requirements of the MS. But add a few short workings at each end in between If possible in particularly in the South. There is a set sat in Swansea in the morning and then another during the afternoon. Would it be possible to do a short working to Llandovery for example. Would there be a path available on the main line to Llanelli to make it work?
 

30907

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I do wonder if it might not be better to keep four through trains per day and run an extra one or two at each end of the route, giving the more populated station areas a usable commuter service serving Llanelli-Swansea and Church Stretton-Shrewsbury
Part of the problem of the 5th train is that it will require two crews and two units. I am sure these are do-able, but I agree it may not be the most efficient use of resources.
 

Rhydgaled

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the first two services of the day might as well be ECS workings for the first half of their journies. I've never taken either of them, but I can't see many getting up in Shrewsbury at 04.15 for the 05.25 to Swansea. So the first realistic train is the 10.02, which doesn't reach Llandod until nearly midday.
Aye. For this reason I think Jane Dodds should have pushed for improvements on the Cambrian Coast Line rather than the Heart Of Wales (both lines suffered cuts in December and both are within the Senedd region that she represents). My view is that it's not worth putting much money/effort into local stopping services on the line between Llandovery* and Craven Arms unless/until a traincrew depot and overnight stabling for two units (similar to Pwllheli) is provided at Llandrindod Wells. I think there are already sidings there (used for the stock of the Cardiff-Builth Road extra workings than tend to be run during the Royal Welsh Show) so might not require much in the way of new infrustructure. That would allow the first southbound to start from Llandridnod Wells without the (effectively) ECS north of there and, similarly, the first northbound to run from Llandrindod Wells into Shrewsbury without the (effectively) ECS move down from Shrewsbury in the morning.

* south of Llandovery, there should be some serious consideration given to a Swansea metro system and also to some form of "mechanic's creeper" type wagon that can slide under a HGV and jack it up so that it is carried on the rail wagon. The latter would prevent the lower part of the HOWL being part of the Metro but would hopefully also prevent a busy road being built to cut Llandeilo passengers off from their station by providing an alternative way to keep HGVs out of the town.

Unfortunately we are also stuck with the 153s for the moment whilst almost everywhere else is new trains. Just the way it is with the HOWL line and TFW having other priorities.
Other than the FLIRTs, TfW's new trains aren't much to get excited about anyway. The highest-quality trains in TfW's fleet for long trips are the mark 4s and class 158s, neither of which are new obviously. If they were lighter and cheaper to run, I'd have said the class 175/0s (ie. the 2-car units) would have been the ideal stock for the Heart Of Wales.

I'm sure they were rarely full and standing (certainly not the return runs to Shrewsbury and Swansea), but I suspect it's as much cost pressure as it was low usage.
hmm yes I’d say it was obvious because if the usage was high enough, they wouldn’t have the cost pressures…? It all boils down to money. If it was used well enough to cover costs, it would have continued
With a single PRM-compliant class 153, the difference between 'empty' and 'full & standing' is not many passengers at all. I have no idea of what running a train costs, but it wouldn't surprise if a single 153 cannot cover it's costs even if every seat was taken, they can carry so few seated passengers. The additional seats provided by the active travel 153s will be helpful in that they will provide space to grow usage a bit.

Would anyone like to propose a timetable which would increase passenger-miles and revenue? Perhaps more short workings and fewer through trains?
As above; two trains parked overnight in Llandrindod Wells, one running all-stops to Shrewsbury for arrival around 8am and one all-stops to Swansea for arrival about 07:45. Reverse of that in the evening departing each end around 20:45 with three or four end-to-end through trains each way between that (the aim being that all stations north of Llandovery receive at least five trains each way per day, but with one of these starting/terminating at Llandrindod Wells). In addition to this (unless we have to do the HGV thing to escape the awful Llandeilo highway bypass) 2 or 3 faster through trains each way between Swansea and Shrewsbury (calling only at the passing loop stations) plus Swansea Metro services on the southern end of the route (probably from the Glanamman and Ammanford branch so not even reaching Llandeilo and Llandovery). I very nearly made a workable timetable which had services every two hours between Shrewsbury and Craven Arms, with the mix of 2-3 fast and 5 stoppers continuing onto the HOWL, but the passing loop times were too tight. If the token exchange could be made near-instant (or loops made dynamic) or linespeeds improved a bit to cut single line occupation it could work.

At danger of drifting into speculation/fantasy, the route to regular frequencies would probably be through not having everything calling everywhere.

A fast/semi fast in one direction (loop-to-loop) passing a stopper in the other, then reversing the direction of the calling pattern with the next pair, might enable regular service patterns. Faster services to/from the busier locations might even bring growth?

Central Wales Metro? :lol:

Ain’t gonna happen though!
I agree, a mix of fast and stopping services would be good for most of the HOWL - alot of the halts serve tiny populations (and/or are a long walk from the town/village) while the bigger places deserve a better service, ideally including some trips that are more time-competitive than the current trains. I wouldn't call it a Metro though - Metro to me is a service/network with frequent services and frequent stops (often less than 5 minutes apart) serving a metropolitan area (ie. a metropolis or large city).
 

Rhydgaled

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two trains parked overnight in Llandrindod Wells
How would the crews get there in the morning and back to their depots at night? Would you establish a traincrew depot there or have 'lodging turns'?
The answer to your question was in the first paragraph of my post; to save you looking for it in what was (admittely) a fairly long post here is the relevant bit again:

My view is that it's not worth putting much money/effort into local stopping services on the line between Llandovery* and Craven Arms unless/until a traincrew depot and overnight stabling for two units (similar to Pwllheli) is provided at Llandrindod Wells.
 

Dai Corner

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The answer to your question was in the first paragraph of my post; to save you looking for it in what was (admittely) a fairly long post here is the relevant bit again:
Ah, sorry. I missed that for some reason. :oops:
 

Llanigraham

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Aye. For this reason I think Jane Dodds should have pushed for improvements on the Cambrian Coast Line rather than the Heart Of Wales (both lines suffered cuts in December and both are within the Senedd region that she represents).
Jane Dodds is the MS for Brecon and Radnor which is nowehere near the Cambrian Coast line, which falls into different constituencies, now and under the proposed new constituencies.

* south of Llandovery, there should be some serious consideration given to a Swansea metro system and also to some form of "mechanic's creeper" type wagon that can slide under a HGV and jack it up so that it is carried on the rail wagon. The latter would prevent the lower part of the HOWL being part of the Metro but would hopefully also prevent a busy road being built to cut Llandeilo passengers off from their station by providing an alternative way to keep HGVs out of the town
Which would immediately put it out of gauge, and would probably mean it wouldn't fit under many bridges.
 

Dai Corner

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Jane Dodds is the MS for Brecon and Radnor which is nowehere near the Cambrian Coast line, which falls into different constituencies, now and under the proposed new constituencies.
Actually she's an MS for the Mid and West Wales region, which includes all the Cambrian lines from Welshpool westwards.
 

Rhydgaled

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Jane Dodds is the MS for Brecon and Radnor which is nowehere near the Cambrian Coast line, which falls into different constituencies, now and under the proposed new constituencies.
Actually she's an MS for the Mid and West Wales region, which includes all the Cambrian lines from Welshpool westwards.
Exactly. The Senedd member for Brecon and Radnorshire is James Evans MS.

* south of Llandovery, there should be some serious consideration given to a Swansea metro system and also to some form of "mechanic's creeper" type wagon that can slide under a HGV and jack it up so that it is carried on the rail wagon. The latter would prevent the lower part of the HOWL being part of the Metro but would hopefully also prevent a busy road being built to cut Llandeilo passengers off from their station by providing an alternative way to keep HGVs out of the town.
Which would immediately put it out of gauge, and would probably mean it wouldn't fit under many bridges.
A HGV would of course be out-of-gauge on any normal wagon, which is why I suggested a rather strange idea. Many steam-era routes were built for double track, even if only one track was ever laid. I've no idea whether the Central Wales was one of those routes, but if it was then the remaining single line might be able to carry loads which would normally be out-of-guage, particularly if a special wagon was used (my "mechanic's creeper" idea would hardly need to raise the HGV's wheels off the ground, so if a HGV could drive under the bridge if the line was closed and the track lifted it would probably fit on such a wagon).
 

70014IronDuke

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Anecdotal observation: the simplified service now running, with the longer stops at Llandod and, I think, increased allowances for the non-compulsory stop stations, seems to be producing a much more reliable service, at least from casual checking of RTT. Unless it's the poorer loadings in winter that makes it easier to keep time.
 

Rhydgaled

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"Each bike carriage is in a specially designed livery to reflect the best the Heart of Wales line has to offer." Really? Why does the sea appear to feature prominently on the livery then? The nearest the Heart Of Wales Line gets to the sea is just north of Llangennech, where it joins the Swansea District Line, isn't it? Even if you count the whole route of the Heart Of Wales train services through to Swansea; the nearest you get to a view of the sea I can think of is when going over the Loughor bridge, and even that I'd say is crossing a river not the sea.
 

Jez

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"Each bike carriage is in a specially designed livery to reflect the best the Heart of Wales line has to offer." Really? Why does the sea appear to feature prominently on the livery then? The nearest the Heart Of Wales Line gets to the sea is just north of Llangennech, where it joins the Swansea District Line, isn't it? Even if you count the whole route of the Heart Of Wales train services through to Swansea; the nearest you get to a view of the sea I can think of is when going over the Loughor bridge, and even that I'd say is crossing a river not the sea.
I agree. Would be more suited to the Pembroke Dock Line!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The space by the table seats in the active travel carriage is awful! Really cramped. I would definitely aim for the other carriage.
 
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strettonarms96

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With the announcement that the funding is secured to re-introduce a fifth service on the HOWL, and press indicating recently that HOWLTA are impressing on TfW for updates on timetables/the manner in which this would be introduced, any ideas on what we are likely to see?

Also - there seems to be no news on the (potential/ expected) fate of the X48?

It seems relatively lightly used, although perhaps slightly more than when it was introduced (owing to no advertising/promotion) - and indeed one or two services running simultaneous to the train!
 

DelW

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With the announcement that the funding is secured to re-introduce a fifth service on the HOWL, and press indicating recently that HOWLTA are impressing on TfW for updates on timetables/the manner in which this would be introduced, any ideas on what we are likely to see? Also - there seems to be no news on the (potential/ expected) fate of the X48? It seems relatively lightly used, although perhaps slightly more than when it was introduced (owing to no advertising/promotion) - and indeed one or two services running simultaneous to the train!
The most recent HoWLTA newsletter includes a statement that "It was announced this week that the government will use the Canolbarth [central Wales area] as a testing ground for integration of bus and rail services using TrawsCymru services in Powys".

It was also announced in the last week or two that the TrawsCymru T4, previously run by Stagecoach between Cardiff and Newtown via Llandrindod, will from September be operated by Celtic Travel of Llanidloes and will run between Merthyr and Newtown. They also operate the X48.

So it seems possible that the opportunity might be taken to amend both timetables to give better interchange options at Llandrindod. The ideal might be something like the TrawsCymru timetable at Dolgellau, where (IIRC) buses from four directions arrive more or less simultaneously, swap passengers as necessary, then continue on their way. Since the HoW trains lay over at Llandrindod to swap crews anyway, this would, if it's possible, greatly improve connections in the area. No promises though!
 

Envoy

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This further integration of rail and buses in rural sparsely populated mid Wales is most welcome. Hopefully we will also see an improvement at the southern end of the line when Llanelli station gets the new bus station.
 

DelW

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It's occurred to me that Celtic Travel also operates the X47 bus service between Llandrindod and Aberystwyth.

If that could be linked in with the T4 and HoW at Llandrindod it would benefit places like Rhayader and Llangurig, and potentially reinstate connections that disappeared when the Mid-Wales line (Three Cocks to Moat Lane) closed in the early 1960s.

Whether it's actually feasible to integrate the HoW, T4, X47 and X48 as well, is another question, though.
 
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