Could the Heart of Wales timetable be improved?

[Western 52]

Yes I think you can lock a train into Llandrindod siding. They do that with the Royal Welsh Show train each July.

 

[Meerkat]

Closing it would be costly. The Welsh Govt would need to find a way to blame central Govt, and vice-versa, and just ignore those rural commun constituencies.

I expect the only thing keeping it going is the political cost of closing it! That is why I wonder how big an infrastructure failure would need to be to just give up on it.

More passengers:
- low catchment area population
- high tourism potential

Is there that much tourist potential? Both ends are a bit remote, trains are tiny and low quality, scenery is good but not spectacular.

Less cost:

I can't see how you make it cheaper. Stock is as cheap as it gets, staffing is minimal (single bod operation would mean driver collecting fares which would make it far slower, and its pretty remote to only have one staff member on board)

 

[craigybagel]

Unless you upgrade the signalling, you can't reduce staffing costs. DOO is forbidden along there - even ECS movements require a guard.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Over the years , money has been spent on viaducts and tunnels - so they can probably go on for ever. I don't think a 15x does much track damage and the tonnage passing over the route is low , so track renewals are containable.

I recall being told that the line enjoyed dedicated and local PW staff who knew it intimately , so simple jobs like sleeper changing on a need to basis was done. Keeping costs down such that unit costs were low. Almost a paragon of cost effective route management.

 

[fishwomp]

Is there that much tourist potential? Both ends are a bit remote, trains are tiny and low quality, scenery is good but not spectacular.

Chicken and egg..

I can't see how you make it cheaper. Stock is as cheap as it gets, staffing is minimal (single bod operation would mean driver collecting fares which would make it far slower, and its pretty remote to only have one staff member on board)

Exactly...

About the only thing that could be done would be a light-railway order. Except that it already is - since 1972 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Wales_line ) for the most. If this were a tram or bus, it'd have one member of staff.

No-one on a non-stop request stop ever needed a ticket.. and perhaps the 10 mins at each passing point would be a good place for a ticket check.

What would you do if starting from nothing. What railway would you run?

 

[Dai Corner]

What would you do if starting from nothing. What railway would you run?

Well, you wouldn't build or run a railway at all.

As noted earlier in the thread it's only there at all because transporting coal was once a lucrative business and it's only still there because the politicians are too frightened to close it.

 

[Wuggie Norple]

I live in Cardiff and as it was many years since my last trip on the HoWL, I thought I’d take a round trip last autumn, taking advantage of a Circular Ranger ticket (available in 1 and 2-day versions.)

My first attempt to do the trip was thwarted by a derailment at Llandrindod which luckily I discovered before leaving home.

In planning my second attempt (in a clockwise direction) it soon became clear that the timetable did not allow me to stop off at two places where I could stay for a couple of hours/pints before continuing - Llandrindod and Knighton perhaps? So in the end, I travelled straight through from Swansea to Church Stretton where I stopped for a beer break, then down to Ludlow for a longer break.

In my view, the potential of the line for leisure travel would be much enhanced if there was a 2-hourly service frequency, journey times were reduced to the 1981 timings mentioned up-thread, and if the wretched lineside vegetation could be cut back (at least on the scenic sections of the line) to allow the views to actually be enjoyed.

However, from the discussion above, it seems that sadly, these things are exceedingly unlikely to happen.

Incidentally, when I made my trip, I could have taken advantage of free travel between Swansea and Shrewsbury, but by the time I added on the cost of singles from Cardiff to Swansea, and from Church Stretton to Cardiff, it was still cheaper to get the Circular Day Ranger ticket.

 

[Dr Day]

Well, you wouldn't build or run a railway at all.

As noted earlier in the thread it's only there at all because transporting coal was once a lucrative business and it's only still there because the politicians are too frightened to close it.

Would be interesting if there was a referendum of the good folk of Shropshire, Powys and Carmarthenshire to see if they would rather keep the line open north of say Ammanford or turn the route into a tourist-oriented cycleway and spend the £Xm per year subsidy on a heavily discounted quality half hourly bus service instead (and still have plenty of change).

 

[ChrisC]

In planning my second attempt (in a clockwise direction) it soon became clear that the timetable did not allow me to stop off at two places where I could stay for a couple of hours/pints before continuing - Llandrindod and Knighton perhaps? So in the end, I travelled straight through from Swansea to Church Stretton where I stopped for a beer break, then down to Ludlow for a longer break.

In my view, the potential of the line for leisure travel would be much enhanced if there was a 2-hourly service frequency, journey times were reduced to the 1981 timings mentioned up-thread, and if the wretched lineside vegetation could be cut back (at least on the scenic sections of the line) to allow the views to actually be enjoyed.

However, from the discussion above, it seems that sadly, these things are exceedingly unlikely to happen.

There are a number of small towns along the line, including Knighton, Llandrindod Wells, Llanwrtyd Wells, Llandovery and Llandeilo, which are nice interesting places to visit. With the perhaps the exception of Llandrindod none of them are really large enough to need more than a couple of hours to explore them. Therefore it would be good if the timetable allowed visitors to visit more than one of these locations during a days visit. The huge gap without a train in the afternoon does not really work for anyone wanting to visit these towns.

A few years ago I did a day trip along most of the line starting from Crewe and decided to make my destination Llandeilo. At that time the timetable allowed me just over 2 hours in Llandeilo which was good. Even then the afternoon gap in the timetable did not make it practical to stop off at one of the other towns on the return journey. Instead I stopped off at Church Stretton which has a more frequent timetable to complete my return journey. The current timetable is even less convenient for day visits than the one a few years ago with an even longer afternoon gap in the timetable.

 

[Dai Corner]

Would be interesting if there was a referendum of the good folk of Shropshire, Powys and Carmarthenshire to see if they would rather keep the line open north of say Ammanford or turn the route into a tourist-oriented cycleway and spend the £Xm per year subsidy on a heavily discounted quality half hourly bus service instead (and still have plenty of change).

I suspect the turnout would reflect the numbers using cycleways or public transport and be very low.

 

[Llanigraham]

I suspect the turnout would reflect the numbers using cycleways or public transport and be very low.

I just wonder whether people suggesting conversions such as this think about who is going to maintain it when the rails are removed, because it certainly will not be the County Councils, considering how little use it would get.

 

[Envoy]

Would be interesting if there was a referendum of the good folk of Shropshire, Powys and Carmarthenshire to see if they would rather keep the line open north of say Ammanford or turn the route into a tourist-oriented cycleway and spend the £Xm per year subsidy on a heavily discounted quality half hourly bus service instead (and still have plenty of change).

The roads are terrible. Mind you, if they closed the railway, they could use the track bed for a Builth Wells by-pass for the A483 (but not the A470).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jan 2025 ==

There are a number of small towns along the line, including Knighton, Llandrindod Wells, Llanwrtyd Wells, Llandovery and Llandeilo, which are nice interesting places to visit. With the perhaps the exception of Llandrindod none of them are really large enough to need more than a couple of hours to explore them. Therefore it would be good if the timetable allowed visitors to visit more than one of these locations during a days visit. The huge gap without a train in the afternoon does not really work for anyone wanting to visit these towns.

A few years ago I did a day trip along most of the line starting from Crewe and decided to make my destination Llandeilo. At that time the timetable allowed me just over 2 hours in Llandeilo which was good. Even then the afternoon gap in the timetable did not make it practical to stop off at one of the other towns on the return journey. Instead I stopped off at Church Stretton which has a more frequent timetable to complete my return journey. The current timetable is even less convenient for day visits than the one a few years ago with an even longer afternoon gap in the timetable.

Llandeilo has Newton House (NT) and Dinefwr Castle within walking distance fo the station. It would be good if a local ran a mini bus up to Carreg Cennen Castle which is about 4 miles SE of the town. Llandeilo is spoilt by having the A483 going through the main street - as is Builth Wells. Goodness knows why the Welsh Government have been against these places having by-passes?

Anyway, I agree, the large gaps in the train service make it unviable for a visit to the towns on this line.

 

[Meerkat]

Over the years , money has been spent on viaducts and tunnels - so they can probably go on for ever. I don't think a 15x does much track damage and the tonnage passing over the route is low , so track renewals are containable.

I recall being told that the line enjoyed dedicated and local PW staff who knew it intimately , so simple jobs like sleeper changing on a need to basis was done. Keeping costs down such that unit costs were low. Almost a paragon of cost effective route management.

I was thinking more about earthworks, considering how many have been failing across the country in recent years. I believe the line goes through some quite bumpy land so I assume it has some pretty significant cuttings and embankments.

 

[Jez]

At the end of the day it would be lovely to have a 2 hourly service on the HOWL. However with the population of much of the line and therefore usage being very low its hard to imagine any investment in this would be possible. As well as an addition passing loop there were be more costs such as train crew and more trains . I think it does have to be a compromise.

Id guess the majority of people who use the line are locals either going to Shrewsbury or Llanelli/Swansea or Llandod as their nearest town or city. But there is still a massive potential for people who dont use the line to use it for tourism. Also some people do use it end to end for leisure purposes and not just enthusiasts.

Whilst at Swansea this afternoon i noticed a 150 sat at platform 1 which I assume had formed an earlier HOWL service. Also another HOWL service was arriving into platform 4. Im not sure what the arrangements are for moving these units, I guessing 1 of them forms the evening HOWL service but what about the other one. Everything else on paper is booked for a 197 now (apart from the daily MK4 service). There does seem to be a lot of units sat around in Swansea doing nothing quite a few hours. Its a real shame some short joruneys even as far as Ammanford couldnt happen. It would boost use of the southern end of the line for sure.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

At the end of the day it would be lovely to have a 2 hourly service on the HOWL. However with the population of much of the line and therefore usage being very low its hard to imagine any investment in this would be possible. As well as an addition passing loop there were be more costs such as train crew and more trains . I think it does have to be a compromise.

Id guess the majority of people who use the line are locals either going to Shrewsbury or Llanelli/Swansea or Llandod as their nearest town or city. But there is still a massive potential for people who dont use the line to use it for tourism. Also some people do use it end to end for leisure purposes and not just enthusiasts.

Whilst at Swansea this afternoon i noticed a 150 sat at platform 1 which I assume had formed an earlier HOWL service. Also another HOWL service was arriving into platform 4. Im not sure what the arrangements are for moving these units, I guessing 1 of them forms the evening HOWL service but what about the other one. Everything else on paper is booked for a 197 now (apart from the daily MK4 service). There does seem to be a lot of units sat around in Swansea doing nothing quite a few hours. Its a real shame some short joruneys even as far as Ammanford couldnt happen. It would boost use of the southern end of the line for sure.

In sociable hours certainly - but as mentioned before , the traincrew depot at Carmarthen does not help "economic" diagramming , even if you have a "spare" unit - and as we know , TfW are as strapped for cash for regional services as any other regional operator. Again - constraints on the route with single line sections - even on the South end.

Again - and I hate to sound negative - there are complimentary bus services to Swansea , direct , without the "detour" via Llanelli. A difficult one. I come from the Ammanford area and it is not likely to attract tourist traffic .............

 

[Meerkat]

But there is still a massive potential for people who dont use the line to use it for tourism

Define ’massive’, and why do you think this?
It’s not really on the tourist trail, neither end is touristy, and doesn’t really have ‘brand awareness’. Apart from rail enthusiasts have you heard anyone talking about the area as a ‘must visit’? It’s very pleasant but is it ‘wow, looks spectacular - we must base a holiday around it!’.
Is there any evidence rail tour operators think there is a big market - that would be an indicator.

And do TfW really want a tourist market for the line - the trains are tiny so they would risk overloads in the summer which the year round market can’t sustain more stock for.

 

[Jez]

Define ’massive’, and why do you think this?
It’s not really on the tourist trail, neither end is touristy, and doesn’t really have ‘brand awareness’. Apart from rail enthusiasts have you heard anyone talking about the area as a ‘must visit’? It’s very pleasant but is it ‘wow, looks spectacular - we must base a holiday around it!’.
Is there any evidence rail tour operators think there is a big market - that would be an indicator.

And do TfW really want a tourist market for the line - the trains are tiny so they would risk overloads in the summer which the year round market can’t sustain more stock for.

I see your point. I just think the likes of Llandovery, Llanwrtyd and Llandod could see bigger numbers of people visiting as tourists with a more frequent service. Perhaps massive was the wrong word to use.

Whilst none of them are hugely exciting places I do very much enjoy my (not very frequent due to the poor service) trips on the HOWL to visit these places.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There is probably a market for non TfW specials - Swansea to say Llandrindod steam perhaps - but sparingly , but that transfers the risk to a differing operator with differing commercial atttudes - (this has been discussed before) - there are probably enough facilities to handle this within existing infrastructure - but maybe 6 or so times a year.....stabling at Pantyffynon maybe ......

 

[DelW]

Llandeilo is spoilt by having the A483 going through the main street - as is Builth Wells. Goodness knows why the Welsh Government have been against these places having by-passes?

Llanwrtyd also has the A483 through the middle, while Llandovery has the A40 going down the main street despite its being too narrow for two cars to pass outside the Castle Hotel.

They're all pleasant little towns and do get some tourist trade, but very little of that comes by train. Whether a better service would encourage sufficiently more to justify the extra cost is moot, but presumably the evidence of the fifth daily train for the last two years is that it didn't.

 

[Llanigraham]

I see your point. I just think the likes of Llandovery, Llanwrtyd and Llandod could see bigger numbers of people visiting as tourists with a more frequent service. Perhaps massive was the wrong word to use.

Whilst none of them are hugely exciting places I do very much enjoy my (not very frequent due to the poor service) trips on the HOWL to visit these places.

I do wonder whether those suggesting towns like this as tourist centres have actually visited them and actually spent any time in them!

Llandeilo: Too far from the station. I actually like Llandeilo but I go by car, but car parking can be problematical.
Llandovery: Lots of pubs and a few good cafes. A few craft type shops. A ruined castle with a stainless steel statue in front of it. A bowls and croquet club. A private school. Motorbikes on a weekend. Good car parking.
Llanwrtyd Wells: Quite a walk from the station. A couple of fairly basic pubs and cafes. A craft type shop. Some mad events at various times of the year. Poor parking.
Llandrindod: Probably the best of the towns with some good pubs and cafes. Some decent shops. The Rock Park. The Springs. Quite a decent town museum. Good parking.

There is a definite north south divide on the way people head.
From my experience Llandovery and south have a South Wales heading, either to Swansea or Carmarthen. That certainly is the way they head for Hospital treatment.
Llan'dod and the remaining Welsh towns head more towards Hereford or Shrewsbury. They head to hospitals in Hereford or Cheltenham and not Shrewsbury.
Llanwrtyd is a bit odd for hospital treatment as they can head either direction depending as it seems to depend on which Health Centre they are registered at.
(I'm a volunteer with Welsh Ambulance doing patient transport)

Llanwrtyd also has the A483 through the middle, while Llandovery has the A40 going down the main street despite its being too narrow for two cars to pass outside the Castle Hotel.

They're all pleasant little towns and do get some tourist trade, but very little of that comes by train. Whether a better service would encourage sufficiently more to justify the extra cost is moot, but presumably the evidence of the fifth daily train for the last two years is that it didn't.

I would agree that some of the roads do cause problems at some times, especially in Llandeilo. A bypass has been looked at but the route was deemed to possibly cause a flooding problem on a known flood risk river. From experience a lot of people now just head on down the A40 to Carmarthen and join the A48 to head to Swansea.
I've never had much problem in Llandovery, even by The Castle. I sometimes think that more traffic comes into town from the Builth road than off the A40 from the Brecon direction. Once the Heads of the Valley road is finished I suspect more people will use that than the A40.
Builth is the biggest problem and really does need a by-pass, but the easiest route would be over on the north side of the Wye, at Llanelwydd so it joins the Llan'dod and Rhayader routes, but I suspect the Royal Welsh would not want to have any of their grounds taken away for it. Thankfully I know how to get around it all!

 

[Jez]

Llanwrtyd also has the A483 through the middle, while Llandovery has the A40 going down the main street despite its being too narrow for two cars to pass outside the Castle Hotel.

They're all pleasant little towns and do get some tourist trade, but very little of that comes by train. Whether a better service would encourage sufficiently more to justify the extra cost is moot, but presumably the evidence of the fifth daily train for the last two years is that it didn't.

Yes all pleasant towns to visit but not overly special. Most tourists would probably enjoy being on the line iteself rather than want to visit any of the places. I know myself the incentive for going on the HOWL line is more to ride the trains and experience the line rather than want to visit any place in particular. I would guess the poor service is why most tourists to these places go by car/ bus rather than train.

I have a question about how sets are now moved to Swansea/Carmarthen for the HOWL services. In the past there were booked workings for Sprinters from Cardiff to Swansea/West Wales as not just HOWL but other services in the West were booked for Sprinters. Now is it simply a few ECS movements from Canton to get them to where they need to be. In the North to get them to Crewe they interwork with the Crewe stopper so not such a problem to swap sets over. I dont know whether its still the case with the new timetable but there used to be a booked working on Fridays evenings in the last timetable from Cardiff-Crewe to get a set to Crewe.

 

[Harpo]

As growing the Central Wales passenger traffic hasn't been achieved by any of the fine array of highly skilled railway folk and privateers who have stewarded it from John Davies in BR days onwards, you have to suspect it just isn't possible.

JD even experimented with at least one summer of the SO Manchester to Tenby running via the Central Wales line circa 1989, albeit with a pair of 150s.

 

[Jez]

I do wonder whether those suggesting towns like this as tourist centres have actually visited them and actually spent any time in them!

Llandeilo: Too far from the station. I actually like Llandeilo but I go by car, but car parking can be problematical.
Llandovery: Lots of pubs and a few good cafes. A few craft type shops. A ruined castle with a stainless steel statue in front of it. A bowls and croquet club. A private school. Motorbikes on a weekend. Good car parking.
Llanwrtyd Wells: Quite a walk from the station. A couple of fairly basic pubs and cafes. A craft type shop. Some mad events at various times of the year. Poor parking.
Llandrindod: Probably the best of the towns with some good pubs and cafes. Some decent shops. The Rock Park. The Springs. Quite a decent town museum. Good parking.

I have visited Llandovery and Llandod once each and Llanwrtyd a few times but never been to Llandeilo surprisingly. Of the smaller stops ive only been to Garth but want to do Cynghordy and Sugar Loaf at some point.

I went to Llandod by car but the others were by train. I used to find Llanwrtyd a convenient place to go to when doing the lunchtime trip from Swansea and with the trains crossing at Llandod you would have around 1 hour 10 minutes. It is quite a walk into the town so by the time you would factor that in plus being back at the station in good time you would have just enough time to go to a lovely cafe for coffee. I seem to remember a few pubs and a spar supermarket there as well. But very little else. You would always know the train would turn up to go back as even if the northern end was cancelled the train crew would need to return to the South.

Llandovery I found okay as well. It was better than Llanwrytyd and had a good selection of small shops and cafe's/pubs.

It was a long time ago I was in Llandrindod but definately the biggest of those mentioned. A trip there by train puts me off as you basically have at least 4 hours until the next train as they usually cross there (in fact I believe they all do now) and it didnt seem hugely exciting to spend 4 hours there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2025 ==

Looking at the times now on a Saturday for example If i wanted to do the afternoon trip leaving Swansea at 1253 id get to Llanwrtyd at 1448 and leave there at 1609. So actually around 10 minutes longer there than it was back in the day when i did it. If I did Cynghordy or Sugar Loaf id get a bit longer. Im not sure how far the viaduct is from Cynghordy station and if it would be able to be done in a short time of around 1 hour 45 mins. It would be good to see the viaduct at ground level.

Edit - a quick look at google maps and its just over half an hour walk from Cynghordy station to the viaduct apparently. So could be just about okay. But ive no idea what the walk is like!

 

[craigybagel]

I have a question about how sets are now moved to Swansea/Carmarthen for the HOWL services. In the past there were booked workings for Sprinters from Cardiff to Swansea/West Wales as not just HOWL but other services in the West were booked for Sprinters. Now is it simply a few ECS movements from Canton to get them to where they need to be. In the North to get them to Crewe they interwork with the Crewe stopper so not such a problem to swap sets over. I dont know whether its still the case with the new timetable but there used to be a booked working on Fridays evenings in the last timetable from Cardiff-Crewe to get a set to Crewe.

2210 FSX/2222 FO Cardiff - Crewe & 2220 Crewe - Cardiff are booked 2 x 153. There are ECS movements Shrewsbury - Crewe late at night and return early in the morning, plus the aforementioned Crewe - Shrewsbury locals, that keep the sets rotated for now. The Cardiff services may well end in future; I don't believe there are plans for Cardiff drivers to maintain 153 competency in the long term.

 

[Jez]

2210 FSX/2222 FO Cardiff - Crewe & 2220 Crewe - Cardiff are booked 2 x 153. There are ECS movements Shrewsbury - Crewe late at night and return early in the morning, plus the aforementioned Crewe - Shrewsbury locals, that keep the sets rotated for now. The Cardiff services may well end in future; I don't believe there are plans for Cardiff drivers to maintain 153 competency in the long term.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I imagine maintenance will be done at just Crewe once they stop being used on local journeys around Cardiff.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As growing the Central Wales passenger traffic hasn't been achieved by any of the fine array of highly skilled railway folk and privateers who have stewarded it from John Davies in BR days onwards, you have to suspect it just isn't possible.

JD even experimented with at least one summer of the SO Manchester to Tenby running via the Central Wales line circa 1989, albeit with a pair of 150s.

Not forgetting the excellent Tom Clift (RIP) - brought up in Llandrindod and a great advocate for Welsh rail , and an excellent operator . His grandfather did not go to bed until e heard the York Mail pass.

I assisted the case for a 100% service increase - the second Sunday working , funded by the SRA Rail Passenger Programme - which was nodded through with no problem as it gave specific local iine benefits , as well as helping both inward and outward weekend journeys , some of them of decent distances.

 

[Wuggie Norple]

Not going to happen, but given the huge number of stops on this route, would the provision of trains with better acceleration than a class 153 facilitate reduced journey times and/or an improved timetable?

Which trains in the TfW fleet actually have the best 0-60 time?

 

[Dai Corner]

Not going to happen, but given the huge number of stops on this route, would the provision of trains with better acceleration than a class 153 facilitate reduced journey times and/or an improved timetable?

Which trains in the TfW fleet actually have the best 0-60 time?

Probably the 230s or 765s. In the short term they can draw more power from the batteries than the diesel engines can produce.

 

[Wuggie Norple]

If only the producers of the Harry Potter films had chosen to use the Central Wales line instead of the West Highland, it could have been a different story tourism-wise! Very photogenic viaduct at Knucklas (also Cynghordy). There would probably be a daily summer steam service from Shrewsbury to Llandod!

 

[Shrop]

If only the producers of the Harry Potter films had chosen to use the Central Wales line instead of the West Highland, it could have been a different story tourism-wise! Very photogenic viaduct at Knucklas (also Cynghordy). There would probably be a daily summer steam service from Shrewsbury to Llandod!

This is the type of point I was going to raise, the power of the right promotion is incredibly strong. It seems unlikely that this route will ever make much from commuting or shopping trips, but the leisure market could have a lot of potential. I do wonder whether there isn't scope to improve the promotion of this route. A story associating some of the stations or other easily accessible locations along the route with famous people would almost guarantee hordes of visitors. Maybe someone from the cast of Gavin and Stacey could pay a visit, or perhaps one of them might even have a relative associated with somewhere along the route? The famous man of the moment is Luke Littler - not an obvious connection but who knows? And just imagine if someone with the fame of Taylor Swift had a connection? All clutching at straws of course, but I do wonder if any stone has been left unturned?