Could the Harrogate Line be split?

[geordieblue]

Putting trams in could work from Leeds City Centre to Horsforth, but if done on the existing alignment (mostly) then it'd still require the train to go to Leeds, which would make the whole ordeal rather pointless.

I don't think it'd need to be trams - it could be a lighter train variant (e.g. the T&W Metro or Merseyrail, although the latter is probably more of a heavy rail system).

 

[yorksrob]

Feels like, if the line was only Leeds - Knaresborough then it'd have been electrified years ago, possibly at the same time as the Leeds - Ilkley/Shipley lines - it'd have been a shortish simple route that could interwork with the current 333-operated routes going out of the low numbered platforms at Leeds towards Armley. You could run fully electric trains on London services etc. Fast accelerating EMUs could allow new stations (e.g. near Headingley Stadium).

However, the existence of rural section east of Knaresborough makes things more complicated - electrification would mean the additional costs required for the quiet section ("twenty seven passengers per train" etc).

Personally, I'd be fine with four (longer, electrified) trains per hour on the Leeds - Knottingley section (two fast, two slow), with one shortish DMU doing a Harrogate - York shuttle. Connections should be fine at Harrogate, given the frequency on the Horsforth side.

Obviously there are some people who travel from east of Knaresborough to south/west of Harrogate (I've done so myself a couple of times), but the two halves of the route are very different and I feel that the "one size fits all" approach means that passengers on the Horsforth side are missing out on improvements for the sake of retaining a through service for the handful of people travelling long distance.

I don't think so.

I agree that the Harrogate - Leeds section of the line is different in nature and requires a more intensive service, but that is catered for by the fact that some services don't continue all the way through to York.

It's also worth noting that Knaresborough also justifies the more intensive service to Leeds, yet this is on the "wrong" side of Harrogate, so any split would be wrong, either for people travelling from Knaresborough to Leeds or York to Harrogate.

The correct solution for the route is standard OLE for the whole lot with perhaps some capacity enhancement East of Harrogate if we want to run through IC to there via York.

 

[yorksrob]

The service would be far superior for stations Leeds-Harrogate and splitting could potentially give a better service York-Harrogate, up to 2tph with targeted infrastructure improvements (made easier by the lack of need to timetable around the Leeds north western throat). Whilst the range of destinations would be inferior (but probably not to a hugely detrimental degree), the frequency of service would be much better.

Really for what is effectively a suburban service, I don't think ypu'd need anything more intensive than quarter hourly on the route. I suspect that this could be accommodated at the Leeds end with the new platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think it'd need to be trams - it could be a lighter train variant (e.g. the T&W Metro or Merseyrail, although the latter is probably more of a heavy rail system).

Merseyrail is heavy rail, yes, basically an S-Bahn or not dissimilar to the LU subsurface lines which are also heavy rail.

 

[geordieblue]

Really for what is effectively a suburban service, I don't think ypu'd need anything more intensive than quarter hourly on the route.

Would more than 4tph be needed if this wasn't a part of a proper light rail system for West Yorks? No.
Would more than 4tph be needed if this was the first step in a proper step change in local transport? Yes.
Light rail is far more visible than the train, often faster, cleaner, more modern, and, fundamentally, more people use it. If this was a light rail route it'd need more than 4tph for sure (look at Manchester or Newcastle for 'proof' (perhaps proof is too strong, but it does indicate that light rail requires high frequencies)).

 

[geordieblue]

Merseyrail is heavy rail, yes, basically an S-Bahn or not dissimilar to the LU subsurface lines which are also heavy rail.

Merseyrail stations are NR owned, whereas LU subsurface stations are not - IMO that's pretty much the barrier between heavy and light rail (obviously other factors come into play but generally if a train is 'heavy' enough it will be operating on NR metals).

 

[tbtc]

The service would be far superior for stations Leeds-Harrogate and splitting could potentially give a better service York-Harrogate, up to 2tph with targeted infrastructure improvements (made easier by the lack of need to timetable around the Leeds north western throat). Whilst the range of destinations would be inferior (but probably not to a hugely detrimental degree), the frequency of service would be much better.

Good point that - at the moment the service is tied into the two tightly controlled bits of route at Leeds and York. Freeing it up (by running two separate services) would create greater freedom and flexibility to path it at each major city station.

The correct solution for the route is standard OLE for the whole lot with perhaps some capacity enhancement East of Harrogate if we want to run through IC to there via York.

You mean "your personal preference" would include electrification all the way along the quiet bit of the route from Knaresborough to York (even though electrifying best part of twenty miles would come at the opportunity cost of wiring another twentyish miles in Yorkshire, e.g. Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract)?

Looking at the passenger loadings east of Knaresborough, I'm really not sure that there's going to be much call for infrastructure to increase the capacity on that section of route.

 

[yorksrob]

Good point that - at the moment the service is tied into the two tightly controlled bits of route at Leeds and York. Freeing it up (by running two separate services) would create greater freedom and flexibility to path it at each major city station.



You mean "your personal preference" would include electrification all the way along the quiet bit of the route from Knaresborough to York (even though electrifying best part of twenty miles would come at the opportunity cost of wiring another twentyish miles in Yorkshire, e.g. Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract)?

Looking at the passenger loadings east of Knaresborough, I'm really not sure that there's going to be much call for infrastructure to increase the capacity on that section of route.

Then just electrify as is.

 

[SCH117X]

It's also worth noting that Knaresborough also justifies the more intensive service to Leeds, yet this is on the "wrong" side of Harrogate, so any split would be wrong, either for people travelling from Knaresborough to Leeds or York to Harrogate.

Like Harrogate-York, Knaresborough-Leeds is a significant public transport service the train offers; conversely for many in Harrogate particularly when the destination is the north side of Leeds city centre the bus can be quicker. Splitting the route is a non starter given the amount of passengers that do not leave trains at Harrogate. Bear in mind both Pannal and Hornbeam Park are Harrogate suburban stations from where passengers for York board despite being on the Leeds side of Harrogate and there is also Starbeck between Harrogate and Knaresborough. If not OHLed the entire way then the use of bi-mode trains has suggested above would be the best solution.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Also if you're going to wire to Knaresborough then why leave a silly 15 mile gap in the OHLE between there and York? Surely having the whole route as pure EMUs, even if Knaresborough-York is somewhat quieter than the rest, would be better than having to invest in bi-modes for one (relatively) short section of line?

 

[yorksrob]

Like Harrogate-York, Knaresborough-Leeds is a significant public transport service the train offers; conversely for many in Harrogate particularly when the destination is the north side of Leeds city centre the bus can be quicker. Splitting the route is a non starter given the amount of passengers that do not leave trains at Harrogate. Bear in mind both Pannal and Hornbeam Park are Harrogate suburban stations from where passengers for York board despite being on the Leeds side of Harrogate and there is also Starbeck between Harrogate and Knaresborough. If not OHLed the entire way then the use of bi-mode trains has suggested above would be the best solution.

I agree more or less with all of that - it just needs to be electrified all the way round.

 

[HST43257]

I don’t know if this has already been mentioned but there are plans and construction works going on for around 3,000 houses around Hammerton. If they can provide high frequency services serving York, Harrogate and Leeds then we may see 3,000 less people on the roads.

 

[DB]

I agree more or less with all of that - it just needs to be electrified all the way round.

It would make no sense to do that without a major upgrade of the York-Harrogate bit though, or major changes will be needed in future when they get rid of the single-line sections (which must surely happen at some point - they aren't very long but impose significant restrictions).

 

[yorksrob]

It would make no sense to do that without a major upgrade of the York-Harrogate bit though, or major changes will be needed in future when they get rid of the single-line sections (which must surely happen at some point - they aren't very long but impose significant restrictions).

I don't know whether there's the possibility to put in some double track stanchions on some sections, so that double track can be added later.

I think fundamentally you need to treat the loop as a whole, rather than do it in bits and pieces.

 

[DB]

I don't know whether there's the possibility to put in some double track stanchions on some sections, so that double track can be added later.

I think fundamentally you need to treat the loop as a whole, rather than do it in bits and pieces.

I don't necessarily disagree, but the point is that the infrastructure on the two halves is vastly different, so to do it effectively would need a major upgrade of of the York half, of there will always be delays and bottlnecks with the single-line sections, which also restrict capacity. With the number of boxes, it is also very staff-intensive to operate.

For someone intereted in railways it's great - like something from 40 years ago - but it can't be said to be particularly efficient! Don't think there are any boxes left on the ohter half, between Harrogate and Leeds. I remember the one at Horsforth being demolished about a decade ago.

 

[geordieblue]

I think fundamentally you need to treat the loop as a whole, rather than do it in bits and pieces.

But the route has two very different sections with very different characteristics. Splitting the loop wouldn't be perfect but could provide a better service for the majority of passengers. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

 

[yorksrob]

But the route has two very different sections with very different characteristics. Splitting the loop wouldn't be perfect but could provide a better service for the majority of passengers. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Operationally, one part of the route is very different from the other, but I don't think the markets served are all that different - people in the intermediate settlements travelling to Leeds/York for work or leisure. You could get all the necessary benefits on the Leeds section with an electrified heavy rail intensive suburban service. Fancy tram solutions are just a solution looking for a problem.

 

[geordieblue]

I don't think the markets served are all that different - people in the intermediate settlements travelling to Leeds/York for work or leisure.

You could say the same about the East Coast Main Line. No need for Thameslink, since everyone's going to London anyway...
And RE trams - I've never said 'fancy trams' are needed. My preference would be for an Underground or Metro operation, similar to the T&W Metro or Merseyrail, which would require as much segregation as possible to be effective (you could probably path one NR train from beyond Harrogate to Leeds using track sharing, as is done between Newcastle and Sunderland on the Metro, but that's another topic).

 

[yorksrob]

You could say the same about the East Coast Main Line. No need for Thameslink, since everyone's going to London anyway...
And RE trams - I've never said 'fancy trams' are needed. My preference would be for an Underground or Metro operation, similar to the T&W Metro or Merseyrail, which would require as much segregation as possible to be effective (you could probably path one NR train from beyond Harrogate to Leeds using track sharing, as is done between Newcastle and Sunderland on the Metro, but that's another topic).

I suppose you could do, if someone was prepared to pay for the tunnel bit at Leeds. Even if that were the case, I think you'd still gain more from extending a couple of services an hour through to York than from splitting the route.

 

[geordieblue]

I suppose you could do, if someone was prepared to pay for the tunnel bit at Leeds. Even if that were the case, I think you'd still gain more from extending a couple of services an hour through to York than from splitting the route.

Yep, it wouldn't be cheap, but it would be worthwhile (albeit if as part of a Leeds mass transit system. I have to agree that there is little point in splitting the line purely to give a better service Harrogate-Leeds, which I maybe didn't make clear in the OP).

 

[yorksrob]

Good point that - at the moment the service is tied into the two tightly controlled bits of route at Leeds and York. Freeing it up (by running two separate services) would create greater freedom and flexibility to path it at each major city station.



You mean "your personal preference" would include electrification all the way along the quiet bit of the route from Knaresborough to York (even though electrifying best part of twenty miles would come at the opportunity cost of wiring another twentyish miles in Yorkshire, e.g. Leeds - Castleford - Pontefract)?

Looking at the passenger loadings east of Knaresborough, I'm really not sure that there's going to be much call for infrastructure to increase the capacity on that section of route.

Assuming most of the route East of Knaresborough remains single track, you would still be catering for two trains an hour - which isn't particularly lightly used infrastructure, and well within the perameters of service intensity that would justify electrification. Don't forget that Leeds - Castleford is double track, so would require twice as much kit. Then most services go beyond Castleford, so you'd need to do the Hallam and the Ponte lines to get the benefit.

Given that Leeds - Knaresborough easily justifies OLE, the extra bit from Knaresborough to York becomes a sensible fill in.

 

[Glenn1969]

I think the Harrogate and Halifax lines were supposed to be electrified in the same project as Aire Valley but suspect they ran out of money so the later stages were never done. Has the situation changed?

 

[DB]

Given that Leeds - Knaresborough easily justifies OLE, the extra bit from Knaresborough to York becomes a sensible fill in.

But it really only makes sense if the line is upgraded to a similar standard to the other half of the route. There is quite likely good potential for growth, but not with trains only once an hour for most of the day.

 

[yorksrob]

But it really only makes sense if the line is upgraded to a similar standard to the other half of the route. There is quite likely good potential for growth, but not with trains only once an hour for most of the day.

I wouldn't entirely agree.

Whilst I do agree that York - Harrogate could be more popular with a half-hourly service for example, I don't think that it's a pre-requisite. You'd still get the benefits of removing a diesel island and enabling residents to do full journeys between stations on the loop without having to change, even with the current service.

If you think back to the Kent electrification scheme, the main lines were re-modelled and re-signalled, however some of the quieter lines such as those around Maidstone, were still electrified, but with the existing infrastructure.

 

[grangergranger]

Are BMUs possible on this route?
Bombardier and Hitachi have stated that their battery units can reach 90-100 kilometres (50-62 miles).
According to Wikipedia, the entire Harrogate line is 62 kilometres (39 miles).
With wires at each end and Harrogate being in the middle, its possible for BMUs to using pantograph charging.

 

[DB]

Are BMUs possible on this route?
Bombardier and Hitachi have stated that their battery units can reach 90-100 kilometres (50-62 miles).
According to Wikipedia, the entire Harrogate line is 62 kilometres (39 miles).
With wires at each end and Harrogate being in the middle, its possible for BMUs to using pantograph charging.

Might be a possibility if the Leeds-Harrogate half was wired - otherwise probably not as the currently wired sections at each end are very short (too short for it to be worth changing power source even), and particularly at the Leeds end they don't hang around long enough to be able to charge much.

 

[Ken H]

As has been said, Knaresborough is a major generator of traffic - to Leeds and York

if you must split it, i would do it at Knaresborough. but its a difficult site with the viaduct.

So i would go for a bi-mode. 769's would do it.
Spark Leeds - Harrogate as phase 1, and get the 769's running. Do Harrogate-Knaresborough later.

leeds needs a tram system. but to places like Seacroft, Headingley, Middleton, Roundhay/Moortown, Bradford. About where the old leeds trams were... Not on rail routes which go to the wrong places..

 

[DB]

As has been said, Knaresborough is a major generator of traffic - to Leeds and York

if you must split it, i would do it at Knaresborough. but its a difficult site with the viaduct.

So i would go for a bi-mode. 769's would do it.
Spark Leeds - Harrogate as phase 1, and get the 769's running. Do Harrogate-Knaresborough later.

leeds needs a tram system. but to places like Seacroft, Headingley, Middleton, Roundhay/Moortown, Bradford. About where the old leeds trams were... Not on rail routes which go to the wrong places..

Knaresborough is reasonably busy (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_usage_in_North_Yorkshire), but I don't know what the split of traffic in either direction is - most will be going to either Leeds, Harrogate or York.

Agree on trams - but there is also potential to route them to nearby commuter towns where disused rail alignments exist (e.g. Wetherby).

 

[JKF]

As has been said, Knaresborough is a major generator of traffic - to Leeds and York

if you must split it, i would do it at Knaresborough. but its a difficult site with the viaduct.

So i would go for a bi-mode. 769's would do it.
Spark Leeds - Harrogate as phase 1, and get the 769's running. Do Harrogate-Knaresborough later.

leeds needs a tram system. but to places like Seacroft, Headingley, Middleton, Roundhay/Moortown, Bradford. About where the old leeds trams were... Not on rail routes which go to the wrong places..

I think one of the reasons metro schemes have failed in Leeds has been the stubborn determination to route a line through Headingley, on what is quite a narrow road corridor and full of chattering-class nimbys. It’s building a system to pick up existing demand in well-heeled areas rather than building something simpler that might be regenerative elsewhere in the city. Start with the easily achievable and then when that demonstrates success it’s an easier sell for constructing new routes.

The Manchester system got up and running by converting an existing rail line, which avoided some of the planning obstacles and was relatively simple apart from the city centre. My crayoned scheme would start by picking up existing disused rail corridors - mainly the empty bits of formation where four track lines were reduced to two, so Pudsey to Leeds through Bramley, Armley, Wortley, possibly over the Aire on the old Central station viaduct.

Suspect this has been discussed ad nauseum already however!

 

[JKF]

Regarding Harrogate services - would it be beneficial terminating more Leeds-Harrogate services at Knaresborough? It has a reasonable population (15,000 ish) so a more frequent service from there to Leeds could be justified. It’s also (just) larger than Skipton which has a London service - would it be feasible to start a London train there? If London trains were to be routed via York it’d be a no-brainier calling there of course, although would the platform be long enough?