Could the Cross Country franchise be improved?

[traveller1]

Probably many improvements could be sought. I think if the former franchise area (including up the West Coast - to create a whole X rather than an inverted Y - plus Cardiff - Nottingham, Birmingham to Stansted maintained, that would be a good start.

It would also be good to see some frequent South Wales - Cardiff - Yorkshire - Scotland through journeys.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

As a regular user of Crosscountry for commuting and leisure travel, I can think of many improvements.

Remove first class from the 170's Too much overcrowding at peak times especially on the 2 car sets while first class sits empty.

The 18:49 Birmingham to Nottingham must have more than 2 coaches. Its a crush loaded train every weekday. 2 coaches between Cardiff, Birmingham and Nottingham in unacceptable.

Remove the need to buy a peak time ticket on day returns to travel between 15:30 and 18:15 M-F. This slows the ticket queue down considerably as everyone is asked when are they coming back then they have to stop and think?

Later departures from Nottington to Birmingham, I believe there is one but its an ECS back to Tysley depot via New St.


Earlier Sunday departure from Burton on Trent towards Birmingham. The 1V48 Leeds to Plymouth bound HST goes through Burton at 09:39 without stopping but stops at Tamworth. Why? There is bags of recovery time on Sundays. First southbound train is not untill 10:29 on Sundays. Lots of Burton hospital staff want a service back to Birmingham after coming off night shift. They all have hang around the station untill 10:29.

Dont serve Glasgow at all. East coast should go back to serving Glasgow again with their better stock.

Fix the Aircon on their voyagers and HST's. Do they repair it at all? Its boil in a bag travel every summer. The HST's are really bad in the summer. I have seen the internal doors taped open to try and get some air through from the open windows.

As has been said before, clean up their stinking dirty Voyagers. The state of those trains is unacceptable.

Help passengers out during the Lamington viaduct disruption by relaxing peak time ticket restrictions when travelling to Scotland. Passengers already have a longer journey. Do not charge peak time fares when you have to start earlier in the day and travel on a stinking voyager to get to Glasgow at the same time as before the disruption.

Could toilet modules designed for 222s be installed in 220s and 221s (would that solve the bad toilets problem)?

Either Portsmouth runs via East West Rail (as the 3rd Path) then Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe to Blackpool / Liverpool or the Bournemouth services are diverted via East West Rail and thence to Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe and Blackpool / Liverpool with the Portsmouth services to Manchester via Reading and New Street.

Potentially if the WCML is served again to Scotland the Bournemouth service should go to Scotland via New Street instead of Manchester with an additional Manchester to Birmingham service.
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I wasn't proposing a zero growth franchise but unless capacity is increased then physically the growth cannot get on the existing train service with the current capacity as provided.

Isn't New Street already at maximum capacity anyway without trying to squeeze in any extra trains?

 

[Class 170101]

How significant a flow is that though? I doubt that the number of People making direct Tamworth to Bristol journies is enough to warrant a direct service vs changing at New St (which should have capacity for more local and shorter regional services post HS2).

Its one of many flows which are likely to add up.
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Isn't New Street already at maximum capacity anyway without trying to squeeze in any extra trains?

Too many trains that terminate there when they should run through. New Street is not built as a terminus station but as a through station.
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The next CrossCountry franchise starts in early 2019, a year after the EMT and WCML franchises... Given MML will get progressively electrified between now and 2023, it's highly likely that some new EMU's will start coming into service on MML in 2019.

Surely MML HSTs will be retired first when the EMUs arrive with 222s filling the gap left by those HSTs before the 222s themselves are released in the mid 2020s when wiring reaches Nottingham and Sheffield?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Surely MML HSTs will be retired first when the EMUs arrive with 222s filling the gap left by those HSTs before the 222s themselves are released in the mid 2020s when wiring reaches Nottingham and Sheffield?

Yes, more than likely

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's funny that MK was mentioned upthread. The Southern stopping service "round the side" via Kenny O is getting busier and busier, and I think there is real untapped demand for an hourly or even half-hourly InterCity-style service on that axis to separate those passengers from the packed-in commuters and shoppers. There isn't room now, but when HS2 is built there could well be.

I would suggest such a service would not stop anywhere between Watford Jn and Clapham Jn but would be routed via the WLL (even if quite slowly).

 

[The Ham]

Looking at the timetable, it could be possible to run all the Bristol TM to Manchester services with 4 HST's (leaving one spare), as they take just over 3 hours and run every other hour.

That would give quite a boost to capacity over that fairly busy section, and could allow some other services to skip one or two stops.

That will then free up 4 Voyagers to be used elsewhere, I would suggest that they could be used to double up some services on the Derby Oxford axis.

 

[Haydn1971]

Surely MML HSTs will be retired first when the EMUs arrive with 222s filling the gap left by those HSTs before the 222s themselves are released in the mid 2020s when wiring reaches Nottingham and Sheffield?

Of course, given EMT have a dozen HST sets, the next franchise will need to replace these before 2020. It's been suggested that commuter EMU stock may end up on the Corby route, which won't free enough 222's to displace the HST's - I'm still of a mind that some of the 225 fleet will be used as a stopgap on EMT to Corby and perhaps Leicester, not for any other reason but the fact that there's a lot of still fit for use trains doing not much else. That would suggest an order for 125mph EMU's (with a handful of bi modes) sometime in 2020, for delivery in 2021-2022 as the wires reach Nottingham, as the 225's aren't ideal for MML longer term. At this point, the 222 fleet could be moved to a different franchise. Bi-modes will be essential for any extensions beyond the wires or for service past maintenance works. How long would the 225's stay ? Well that very much depends on how badly the growth is predicted on MML post wires.

 

[Kettledrum]

Its one of many flows which are likely to add up.

Too many trains that terminate there when they should run through. New Street is not built as a terminus station but as a through station.
QUOTE]

and those are two of the big flaws with a lot of the ideas on this thread.

If you terminate journeys at New Street and don't run through services from the North to the South, you might help reduce delays but you disrupt a lot of existing passenger journeys. You also have the problem of trains potentially being stuck in New Street for longer.

If you just run express services and miss out stations like Tamworth, Burton, Leamington Spa, Cheltenham, Macclesfield, Stockport, Didcot etc - that's a lot of traffic flows and passengers you're displacing (and displacing to where)

If you schedule services to miss out Birmingham New Street completely, then you miss out on loads of passengers and revenue.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Before the XC services from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic. they went upto Scotland, was the route between Bournemouth and Manchester Pic the same as the route from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic is now? Where did it call at north of Manchester? Why was it cut back?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Surely MML HSTs will be retired first when the EMUs arrive with 222s filling the gap left by those HSTs before the 222s themselves are released in the mid 2020s when wiring reaches Nottingham and Sheffield?

Of course, given EMT have a dozen HST sets, the next franchise will need to replace these before 2020. It's been suggested that commuter EMU stock may end up on the Corby route, which won't free enough 222's to displace the HST's - I'm still of a mind that some of the 225 fleet will be used as a stopgap on EMT to Corby and perhaps Leicester, not for any other reason but the fact that there's a lot of still fit for use trains doing not much else. That would suggest an order for 125mph EMU's (with a handful of bi modes) sometime in 2020, for delivery in 2021-2022 as the wires reach Nottingham, as the 225's aren't ideal for MML longer term. At this point, the 222 fleet could be moved to a different franchise. Bi-modes will be essential for any extensions beyond the wires or for service past maintenance works. How long would the 225's stay ? Well that very much depends on how badly the growth is predicted on MML post wires.

The original MML electrification schedule had wires to Corby in 2017, followed by Nottingham/Derby in 2019 (whitch would have allowed the withdrawal of EMT HST's) and Sheffiild by 2021 (which would have freed up the 222 fleet). The revised schedule now has Corby in 2019 (which as Haydn1971notes will not free up enough 222's to replace the HST's on the Nottingham fasts), followed by electrification to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield in 2023 when the HST and 222's will be freed up and the whole MML fleet can become EMU's.

I would agree a commuter type EMU would be suitable for Corby, but I doubt the 225's could be used on Corby or Leicester diagrams (even as a stop gap measure) given their slow acceleration and the stop start nature of those services. So that leaves the question of what to do about EMT HST's and the 2020 DDA deadline? Conversion to make them compliant through fitting power doors is not viable for just three years service without somewhere else to cascade them too (and with 222's coming free at the same time that are already compliant then why would another operator use much older HST).

Realistically EMT HST's will either revive a degradation from the SoS for transport to stay in service beyond the 2020 deadline but with the caveat to be withdrawn from service as soon as electrification allows. Or the HST's will be replaced by a new order of Bi-modes (which would allow EMT franchise to continue to serve off the wires destinations like extending some Corby services to Oakham and Melton Mobary.

 

[Class 170101]

It's funny that MK was mentioned upthread. The Southern stopping service "round the side" via Kenny O is getting busier and busier, and I think there is real untapped demand for an hourly or even half-hourly InterCity-style service on that axis to separate those passengers from the packed-in commuters and shoppers. There isn't room now, but when HS2 is built there could well be.

I would suggest such a service would not stop anywhere between Watford Jn and Clapham Jn but would be routed via the WLL (even if quite slowly).

Even with HS2 built I doubt there will room, otherwise this service would run beyond East Croydon to Gatwick which is a more worthy traffic objective - HS2 will have no effect on Southern capacity issues at East Croydon and on the BML in general.
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Before the XC services from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic. they went upto Scotland, was the route between Bournemouth and Manchester Pic the same as the route from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic is now? Where did it call at north of Manchester? Why was it cut back?

VXC Route Map December 2001
It was cut back due to un-reliability of Operation Princess.

I also believe the DfT wanted XC off the WCML to improve finances of the West Coast franchise - higher premiums, but thats me being cynical.

 

[SeanG]

Before the XC services from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic. they went upto Scotland, was the route between Bournemouth and Manchester Pic the same as the route from Bournemouth to Manchester Pic is now?

Yes

Where did it call at north of Manchester?

Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Oxford Road
Bolton
Preston
Lancaster
Oxenholme LD
Pernrith NL
Carlisle
Motherwell
Glasgow Central -or- Haymarket then Edinburgh Waverley

Why was it cut back?

The Manchester - Scotland route was given over to Transpennine Express (as Manchester Airport - Scotland).
There was a brief period when it was operated by Virgin WC as a stopgap
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/size]


http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/Virgin lit 122001.jpg
It was cut back due to un-reliability of Operation Princess.

I love the map.

The Cheltenham - Swindon (VT0) and services to Manchester Airport - were they operated by 158s? Was it a dedicated Virgin fleet or a token number from another operator's?

 

[Ianno87]

Yes



Manchester Piccadilly
Manchester Oxford Road
Bolton
Preston
Lancaster
Oxenholme LD
Pernrith NL
Carlisle
Motherwell
Glasgow Central -or- Haymarket then Edinburgh Waverley

XC services did not normally call at Oxford Road ; that was a TPE addition.

 

[The Ham]

The original MML electrification schedule had wires to Corby in 2017, followed by Nottingham/Derby in 2019 (whitch would have allowed the withdrawal of EMT HST's) and Sheffiild by 2021 (which would have freed up the 222 fleet). The revised schedule now has Corby in 2019 (which as Haydn1971notes will not free up enough 222's to replace the HST's on the Nottingham fasts), followed by electrification to Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield in 2023 when the HST and 222's will be freed up and the whole MML fleet can become EMU's.

I would agree a commuter type EMU would be suitable for Corby, but I doubt the 225's could be used on Corby or Leicester diagrams (even as a stop gap measure) given their slow acceleration and the stop start nature of those services. So that leaves the question of what to do about EMT HST's and the 2020 DDA deadline? Conversion to make them compliant through fitting power doors is not viable for just three years service without somewhere else to cascade them too (and with 222's coming free at the same time that are already compliant then why would another operator use much older HST).

Realistically EMT HST's will either revive a degradation from the SoS for transport to stay in service beyond the 2020 deadline but with the caveat to be withdrawn from service as soon as electrification allows. Or the HST's will be replaced by a new order of Bi-modes (which would allow EMT franchise to continue to serve off the wires destinations like extending some Corby services to Oakham and Melton Mobary.

If the Intercity 225's were run with shorter rakes then the acceleration probably wouldn't be too bad.

 

[Kettledrum]

VXC Route Map December 2001
It was cut back due to un-reliability of Operation Princess.

I also believe the DfT wanted XC off the WCML to improve finances of the West Coast franchise - higher premiums, but thats me being cynical.

Some of these services were not that frequent, and the aspiration was to move to a more regular "clock face" timetable.

I know there wasn't enough stock to go round, so that was a reason for the cut backs. If there was more stock available (perhaps after MML electrification or an order of bi-modes), how much capacity is there to re-introduce any of the services that were cut?

I'd love to see direct trains from North East to Bournemouth again, but suspect there is no capacity at Birmingham New Street.

Similarly others would want Portsmouth and Liverpool put back on the XC network, but how do you find the paths for any of these new services (as the original paths through the core are now taken up by the more frequent services for the XC routes that survived (and these are services are full)
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If the Intercity 225's were run with shorter rakes then the acceleration probably wouldn't be too bad.

You can't run the 225's on the XC routes without a lot more electrification on the XC routes, and shorter rakes might be fine for some of these services. You could also possibly adjust the gearing as they wouldn't need the same top speed. This might make the acceleration ok for these routes, but OHL are needed first.

I assume you're suggesting using them on the MML and displacing the existing HSTs and 220s for the XC routes. Whilst the DFT seem to think the electric 225s are suitable, I would disagree. Shorter rakes might be ok off peak. As peak MML services are often 2 x 5 coach units together, you'd have a lot less capacity using shorter 225 rakes.

 

[swt_passenger]

Some of these services were not that frequent, and the aspiration was to move to a more regular "clock face" timetable.

I know there wasn't enough stock to go round, so that was a reason for the cut backs. If there was more stock available (perhaps after MML electrification or an order of bi-modes), how much capacity is there to re-introduce any of the services that were cut?

I'd love to see direct trains from North East to Bournemouth again, but suspect there is no capacity at Birmingham New Street.

You wouldn't need any capacity at New St, just extend the 2 hourly trains that currently terminate at Southampton. You'd only need to diagram one unit per day to the route (in fact it's only half a unit per day) to extend the existing trains that extra half an hour each way. But if that unit were ever available, perhaps they'd prefer to use it to extend the current 2 hourly Reading terminators through to somewhere else?

 

[The Planner]

If you get the Camp Hill chords and some extra bits along the Water Orton corridor then you would have the capacity at New St anyway as the Stansteds/Leicester/Nottingham/Cardiff's would be in there.

 

[The Ham]

You can't run the 225's on the XC routes without a lot more electrification on the XC routes, and shorter rakes might be fine for some of these services. You could also possibly adjust the gearing as they wouldn't need the same top speed. This might make the acceleration ok for these routes, but OHL are needed first.

I assume you're suggesting using them on the MML and displacing the existing HSTs and 220s for the XC routes. Whilst the DFT seem to think the electric 225s are suitable, I would disagree. Shorter rakes might be ok off peak. As peak MML services are often 2 x 5 coach units together, you'd have a lot less capacity using shorter 225 rakes.

My post was in response to the suggestion that they wouldn't have the acceleration needed to provide SOME of the units on the MML.

Running the 225's as 6 coach rakes to free up 222's to run in pairs would be fairly useful. Even if the diagrams were timetabled so that they were kept away from the peak hour services.

 

[Haydn1971]

If the Intercity 225's were run with shorter rakes then the acceleration probably wouldn't be too bad.

Indeed...
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Out of pure interest, if the Mk4's attached to either a Class 91 or some Diesel Loco isn't going to work on either XC or EMT... Just what exactly do you expect to happen to 300 odd carriages that are more suited to rail use beyond 2020 than 100's of Mk3's built more than a decade earlier ?

 

[The Ham]

Indeed...
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Out of pure interest, if the Mk4's attached to either a Class 91 or some Diesel Loco isn't going to work on either XC or EMT... Just what exactly do you expect to happen to 300 odd carriages that are more suited to rail use beyond 2020 than 100's of Mk3's built more than a decade earlier ?

Some are due to stay with East Coast, some could go to Greater Anglia to replace their Mark 3's.

 

[Haydn1971]

Some are due to stay with East Coast, some could go to Greater Anglia to replace their Mark 3's.

Ok, let me reword that... What makes the Mk4's work on Greater Anglia and not elsewhere ?

Also, what I'm getting at is that the WC 221's and EMT 222's aren't going to be released quickly enough to help boast XC, yet, the business case for buying new stock for XC would look weak... Assuming Greater Anglia could use 130+ Mk4's, would VTEC need the rest ? 170 ish units in six car formations ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of pure interest, if the Mk4's attached to either a Class 91 or some Diesel Loco isn't going to work on either XC or EMT... Just what exactly do you expect to happen to 300 odd carriages that are more suited to rail use beyond 2020 than 100's of Mk3's built more than a decade earlier ?

They will find use. People went on about the idea that all the Mk3s would end up scrapped because everyone wants MUs instead. As it turns out, they are all in use doing something. The Mk4s will be the same.
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Even with HS2 built I doubt there will room, otherwise this service would run beyond East Croydon to Gatwick which is a more worthy traffic objective - HS2 will have no effect on Southern capacity issues at East Croydon and on the BML in general.

True, I was thinking of the WCML specifically. That said, even a service from, say, New St (calling Intl, Cov, Rugby, MKC, Watford Jn and Clapham Jn only) would be useful, and could well be feasible if it can use the end platform at Clapham Jn.

 

[thealexweb]

Even with HS2 built I doubt there will room, otherwise this service would run beyond East Croydon to Gatwick which is a more worthy traffic objective - HS2 will have no effect on Southern capacity issues at East Croydon and on the BML in general.
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VXC Route Map December 2001
It was cut back due to un-reliability of Operation Princess.

I also believe the DfT wanted XC off the WCML to improve finances of the West Coast franchise - higher premiums, but thats me being cynical.

That map is very interesting indeed. Comparing back then to now, Bolton seems to be one of, if not the greatest, loser. Right now it has no long distance services at all with the only hope of change being in December 2017 at the earliest when it should regain Scotland services.

 

[Kettledrum]

Indeed...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Out of pure interest, if the Mk4's attached to either a Class 91 or some Diesel Loco isn't going to work on either XC or EMT... Just what exactly do you expect to happen to 300 odd carriages that are more suited to rail use beyond 2020 than 100's of Mk3's built more than a decade earlier ?

Why couldn't the coaches be used on XC just like Chilten use the MK3 silver rakes? - you just need a diesel loco + a DVT to haul them.

You could run longer trains then the existing ones, have the capacity to extend more services at the ends of the routes, and possibly add destinations.

XC routes used to be class 47 plus MK2 coaches, so why not more modern diesel locos plus MK4 coaches.

 

[Haydn1971]

They will find use. People went on about the idea that all the Mk3s would end up scrapped because everyone wants MUs instead. As it turns out, they are all in use doing something. The Mk4s will be the same.

Yeah, think I'm getting that bit it's a difficult concept for some though

 

[NotATrainspott]

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of sandwiching shortened Mk4 rakes between sets of HST power cars with a voltage converter in the luggage compartment. When the alternative is the scrapheap, the ROSCOs will have to charge less or they'll get nothing at all. Chilternising HST rakes makes sense if they would have a full life ahead of them, but if the MML will be wired by 2023 there will be that glut of 125mph DMUs which wouldn't really be suitable for any other route. The Mk4s should only require relatively minor and therefore inexpensive works to continue soldiering on through the 2020 accessibility deadline. If they end up being scrapped only a few years after then it would be no big problem, as otherwise they would have just ended up there faster. Even if the Anglia operator took on Mk4s for the Norwich runs they wouldn't need all 270 of them, and that's assuming that the option of replacing the loco rakes like-for-like when there's no extra platform space to be used up would be at all an acceptable idea.

 

[Class 170101]

XC routes used to be class 47 plus MK2 coaches, so why not more modern diesel locos plus MK4 coaches.

Track Access is usually more expensive than with EMUs / DMUs

 

[Haydn1971]

Track Access is usually more expensive than with EMUs / DMUs

The HST's have to be updated or scraped by 2020, so track access charges mean nothing if you've not got anything else to run on the track.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Track Access is usually more expensive than with EMUs / DMUs

It is, but clearly not insurmountably so, otherwise Chiltern and ATW would not be using hauled rakes on normal services.
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I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of sandwiching shortened Mk4 rakes between sets of HST power cars with a voltage converter in the luggage compartment.

Why would you do that rather than use a newer diesel locomotive and the DVT as Chiltern have done?

 

[NotATrainspott]

It is, but clearly not insurmountably so, otherwise Chiltern and ATW would not be using hauled rakes on normal services.
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Why would you do that rather than use a newer diesel locomotive and the DVT as Chiltern have done?

125mph running on the ECML north of York. From what I gather the power cars won't need much work done to them compared to the carriages, and as both would be available and would otherwise be going to scrap it would make sense to try and use them. Using HST power cars also means you could use HST differentials rather than being limited to loco hauled speeds, which could be an issue in some places. Virgin are planning to shorten some 91+Mk4+DVT sets so that they match IEP timings on express Edinburgh runs and the same should be possible for 43+Mk4+43 as well. The 22xs could then focus on increasing capacity on the XC core, especially on services with more stops, as longer 22x combinations won't result in a decrease in performance. Most of the XC capacity problems are in the core so even if the hybrid rakes were only six or seven carriages long, there would still be a massive increase in capacity between Bristol and Yorkshire.