Could the 897s be extended to 12 coaches

[Brubulus]

Given LNERs capacity constraints, especially on the flagship London-Edinburgh route, which is now a self contained shuttle, would it be possible for the 897 order to be varied back to BEMUs, with no diesel power and batteries with a range of 30-50 miles for OHLE failures and some diversions. They would also be extended to 12 coaches and used on the London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh services alongside a couple of 801s, set up so the busiest services are run by 897s. This would allow LNER to have an approximately 20% capacity upgrade on its flagship service at a relatively limited cost.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Given LNERs capacity constraints, especially on the flagship London-Edinburgh route, which is now a self contained shuttle, would it be possible for the 897 order to be varied back to BEMUs, with no diesel power and batteries with a range of 30-50 miles for OHLE failures and some diversions. They would also be extended to 12 coaches and used on the London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh services alongside a couple of 801s, set up so the busiest services are run by 897s. This would allow LNER to have an approximately 20% capacity upgrade on its flagship service at a relatively limited cost.

23m carriages tend to reach maximum reasonable length at eleven coaches, really.
Ten coaches for 26m carriages.
You only see 12 carriage trains with 20m carriages.

 

[Clansman]

23m carriages tend to reach maximum reasonable length at eleven coaches, really.

Pendolinos?

Ten coaches for 26m carriages.

2 x 5 car 80Xs?

You only see 12 carriage trains with 20m carriages.

3 x 4 car ex BREL units or Desiros?

I can’t help but feeling you’re basing this entirely on the idea that we can’t deviate from what has already existed, simply because it hasn’t yet been tried before. What is the rationale for this, if not just looking at patterns in history which have little to no baring on future possibilities?

I am sure people said the same about 11 car Pendolinos before the idea came about, the IET coaches being 26m long despite no passenger coaches being as long before on the UK rail network.

 

[Snow1964]

Unlike the West Coast where a number of platforms were decades ago extended to around 305m (1000 feet), those on the East Coast are generally nearer 270m long.

A few platforms are longer, but ultimately if the terminating platform can't fit them, then gets very difficult operationally.

 

[Mgameing123]

23m carriages tend to reach maximum reasonable length at eleven coaches, really.
Ten coaches for 26m carriages.
You only see 12 carriage trains with 20m carriages.

Can't we use SDO?

 

[D365]

Can't we use SDO?

As per the post directly above yours, generally not at terminus stations.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Pendolinos?

2 x 5 car 80Xs?

3 x 4 car ex BREL units or Desiros?

All of those trains have a maximum formation of exactly what I said.

23m carriages tend to reach maximum reasonable length at eleven coaches, really.
Ten coaches for 26m carriages.
You only see 12 carriage trains with 20m carriages.

Pendolinos - 11x 23
2x 5 80x - 10x 26
3x 4 Ex Brel/Desiro - 12x 20
?

 

[Brubulus]

281M long trains (the length of a 12 coach Civity) would be able to be fully accommodated at Kings Cross, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. 23.3M long intermediate coaches + 24M end coaches.

 

[Bletchleyite]

281M long trains (the length of a 12 coach Civity) would be able to be fully accommodated at Kings Cross, York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. 23.3M long intermediate coaches + 24M end coaches.

That would work for the xx30 "Edinburgh superfast" as that only calls at York and Newcastle en route, if it was feasible to dedicate such trains to that route. After all Edinburgh capacity is normally cited as the main issue...

 

[FGWHST43009]

That would work for the xx30 "Edinburgh superfast" as that only calls at York and Newcastle en route, if it was feasible to dedicate such trains to that route. After all Edinburgh capacity is normally cited as the main issue...

How many seats would a 12-car have versus a fixed 10-car 801 which would technically have 699 seats?

 

[hwl]

That would work for the xx30 "Edinburgh superfast" as that only calls at York and Newcastle en route, if it was feasible to dedicate such trains to that route. After all Edinburgh capacity is normally cited as the main issue...

But not at Platform 5 at King Cross.

Unfortunately LNER's aims don't really include maximising Kings Cross to Edinburgh seating effectively. If they did extending 9 car 80x to 11car (with +2 cars of all standard) would be the ideal way to go.

The LNER vision for the 897s is to handle Lincoln, Harrogate (50%of Leeds), Hull and potentially Middlesborough etc. services to get rid on Cl91s+Mk4 and release some 5car 80x to allow more 2x 5car for a bit of core ECML capacity. The aim of the 897 diesel performance is 65-70mph line speeds on diesel hence a lot less diesel power than the 800s people are used to.

Complete lack of vision combined with high Hitachi prices scuppering decent ECML capacity.

 

[FGWHST43009]

But not at Platform 5 at King Cross.

Unfortunately LNER's aims don't really include maximising Kings Cross to Edinburgh seating effectively. If they did extending 9 car 80x to 11car (with +2 cars of all standard) would be the ideal way to go.

The LNER vision for the 897s is to handle Lincoln, Harrogate (50%of Leeds), Hull and potentially Middlesborough etc. services to get rid on Cl91s+Mk4 and release some 5car 80x to allow more 2x 5car for a bit of core ECML capacity. The aim of the 897 diesel performance is 65-70mph line speeds on diesel hence a lot less diesel power than the 800s people are used to.

Complete lack of vision combined with high Hitachi prices scuppering decent ECML capacity.

11-car 80x seems logical, although would it be an extra TS and an extra MS or could two extra MS coaches be added? Capacity would be 787 seats and length of 286m. However not many platforms at each of York, Newcastle and Edinburgh can take a 286m train, although could be manageable for the hourly fast. 10-car would be more feasible but would struggle to fit in some smaller stations

 

[Mgameing123]

How many seats would a 12-car have versus a fixed 10-car 801 which would technically have 699 seats?

I think we should rather use the additional carriages so that we can actually have proper seating on the 800's instead of iron board hell.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we should rather use the additional carriages so that we can actually have proper seating on the 800's instead of iron board hell.

Have you tried the TfW/WMT version of the seat? It's a lot better without losing legroom space.

 

[FGWHST43009]

I think we should rather use the additional carriages so that we can actually have proper seating on the 800's instead of iron board hell.

I agree, the seats could be improved but I find the GWR ones less comfortable than the LNER ones. However for the sake of calculations I've assumed seating capacity would stay the same irrespective of seat type

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the GWR ones less comfortable than the LNER ones

They're to the exact same spec. The GWR ones are just older so have collapsed more.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They're to the exact same spec. The GWR ones are just older so have collapsed more.

Some of the LNER bases - particularly 800/1 - are very poor now though.
Mind you, if we put metal bar syndrome aside for one moment, I find the use of soft moquette on the Azuma seats makes a considerable difference to the astroturf on the IET ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the LNER bases - particularly 800/1 - are very poor now though.
Mind you, if we put metal bar syndrome aside for one moment, I find the use of soft moquette on the Azuma seats makes a considerable difference to the astroturf on the IET ones.

Back to the original point, I don't think going for a thicker backed seat would be a good use of the high cost of extending the trains without gaining any capacity, not least because it's the thickness of the base, not the back, that mostly impacts comfort - the shape of the back rather than its hardness has more impact because you're not actually putting much weight on the back. Another thin backed design might work well, though, e.g. the Avanti/Lumo seat. It does seem a bit of a theme of some online reviews of Lumo that "it's a bit rubbish overall but the seats are better than LNER".

 

[brad465]

The low hanging fruit I think for more capacity is to allow Lumo to order more 803s and give it permission to run 10-car formations (or if they are allowed to do this, for them to just go ahead with it), and/or lengthen some 9-car 80xs to 11-car as hwl alluded to above.

 

[Brubulus]

But not at Platform 5 at King Cross.

Unfortunately LNER's aims don't really include maximising Kings Cross to Edinburgh seating effectively. If they did extending 9 car 80x to 11car (with +2 cars of all standard) would be the ideal way to go.

The LNER vision for the 897s is to handle Lincoln, Harrogate (50%of Leeds), Hull and potentially Middlesborough etc. services to get rid on Cl91s+Mk4 and release some 5car 80x to allow more 2x 5car for a bit of core ECML capacity. The aim of the 897 diesel performance is 65-70mph line speeds on diesel hence a lot less diesel power than the 800s people are used to.

Complete lack of vision combined with high Hitachi prices scuppering decent ECML capacity.

The 897s can't do Lincoln, Lincoln can only handle 5 car 800s. The 897s are planned to mostly run on Leeds services from what I understand. Every platform bar 5 can handle a 12 coach 897. IET lengthening would create another micro fleet + be extraordinary expensive, while an 11 coach 801 would struggle at most Kings Cross platforms.

 

[Mag_seven]

OK whilst I appreciate that this is a speculative thread I would suggest that discussions about seats is not what this thread is about so can we get back to discussing whether or not the Class 897s could be extended to 12 coaches.

thanks

 

[Charlie978]

To me it makes sense for the 897s to be whatever the max length that would still let them operate pretty much all the Leeds (and extensions) services.

Lincoln, Hull and Middlesbrough should remain 80x unless there is spare 897s and it works diagramming wise.

 

[JamesT]

I know this is the speculative forum, but these trains haven't even been introduced yet. Isn't it worth waiting for them to run to see if 10-car units is long enough? They're also replacing the 225s which have been shortened to 2+7, so there's a capacity uplift on today.

 

[Charlie978]

I know this is the speculative forum, but these trains haven't even been introduced yet. Isn't it worth waiting for them to run to see if 10-car units is long enough? They're also replacing the 225s which have been shortened to 2+7, so there's a capacity uplift on today.

The track record for stock of an inadequate length entering service and subsequently getting lengthened is not good. I’d suspect that whatever length they enter service as will be what they remain as until at least midlife refurb.

 

[Brubulus]

The track record for stock of an inadequate length entering service and subsequently getting lengthened is not good. I’d suspect that whatever length they enter service as will be what they remain as until at least midlife refurb.

Yes, and it would allow capacity maximisation on the route which is by far the busiest, London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh. The 897 order would then displace 9 car 801s onto Leeds etc. Lincoln and Hull will likely continue to be run by 5 car 800s, as those routes struggle with longer trains.

 

[Asmo]

Hull Trains run regular 10 car sets without issue.

 

[stevieinselby]

Hull Trains run regular 10 car sets without issue.

Apart from (a) some stations being limited to certain carriages (and in at least one case the front unit) only, (2) double-crewing or no staff or catering in one of the units, (iii) overhanging the level crossing at Howden (although that is a function of any long train rather than specifically a 5+5 formation). I'm not saying that isn't workable but it certainly isn't an ideal solution – and the daft thing is that the unique bit of Hull Trains, ie the service to Selby, Howden, Brough and Hull (and Cottingham and Beverley) really doesn't need more than 5 carriages in my experience, it's only between Doncaster and London where the extra capacity is used.