Could TfW have a 'Thunderbird' loco on standby for unit failures?

[Bob Price]

Moderator note: Split from

TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

I can't find an open thread on these. Is there any news on them? I saw in a Tweet that some may be on test, if so has anyone seen any pictures. Until the depot is complete there seems no point in delivering them, but it would be good to keep up with progress.

www.railforums.co.uk

Coming back to the 398's failing and needing moving there are any number of locos out there right now that are sitting idle. Surely getting something in as a 'Thunderbird' would be logical until these units bed down?

They had a 37 up at Rhymney for the 769s. I appreciate an 08 or even an E-Lok similar to the one at Cardiff Steelworks would be too slow.

 

[800001]

Coming back to the 398's failing and needing moving there are any number of locos out there right now that are sitting idle. Surely getting something in as a 'Thunderbird' would be logical until these units bed down. They had a 37 up at Rhymney for the 769's. Appreciate an 08 or even an E-Lok similar to the one at Cardiff Steelworks would be too slow.

Greater Anglia had(or had) a ROG 37 when 745/755s were introduced.
Am sure I saw one based at Orient Way London for this purpose.

 

[43096]

Coming back to the 398's failing and needing moving there are any number of locos out there right now that are sitting idle. Surely getting something in as a 'Thunderbird' would be logical until these units bed down. They had a 37 up at Rhymney for the 769's. Appreciate an 08 or even an E-Lok similar to the one at Cardiff Steelworks would be too slow.

What's the coupler height on the 398s, and how does that compare with standard height on locos?

 

[StripeyNick]

Coming back to the 398's failing and needing moving there are any number of locos out there right now that are sitting idle. Surely getting something in as a 'Thunderbird' would be logical until these units bed down. They had a 37 up at Rhymney for the 769's. Appreciate an 08 or even an E-Lok similar to the one at Cardiff Steelworks would be too slow.

I don't think a loco would be an easy option as it'd need quite a significant coupling adaptor to allow it to couple.
The couplings are lower than those of a normal unit.
That's probably why they need to be dragged with translator vans

 

[VR494]

Coming back to the 398's failing and needing moving there are any number of locos out there right now that are sitting idle. Surely getting something in as a 'Thunderbird' would be logical until these units bed down. They had a 37 up at Rhymney for the 769's. Appreciate an 08 or even an E-Lok similar to the one at Cardiff Steelworks would be too slow.

The rescue process under the assistance to a failed train is a real challenge with these. With the proposed frequency on the network and the limited availability of cross over locations and sidings, even getting a loco in position will be difficult.

An example, if a 398 fails going up to Pontypridd, it needs one to assist at the back and the front (push and pull). You could do this at Radyr in the best case scenario, using the shunts between platforms.

The failed unit is unable to have any power transfer to it from a good one, and is a dead weight under isolation. Then if off the wire or trapped in a PES section, (pantograph up and VCB open) the batteries are also draining on both the rescue units too. Once the power goes, you then have 3 units dead. And can’t even operate the systems onboard to raise a pantograph to get it to a position to receive power again. The operations are all on touchscreen.

Then there’s the challenge of getting them back into Taffs Well, and no loco could pull them around the curve.

If one fails in Merthyr for example, you cannot get a unit on the other side of it as it’s a dead end buffer stop. Then there’s rules around assisted from front or rear coming into play.

If the brakes get stuck on, they need to be released by hand by a fitter - they are hydraulic. Clearance is needed to get under the unit to do this too.

Battery tests have proven the units don’t have long at all, and it’s really time critical off wire.

 

[MikePJ]

Presumably there's no "shore supply" connector either?

 

[VR494]

Presumably there's no "shore supply" connector either?

There is MikePJ, it's located on the rear of coach A, between the interconnecting gangway towards the bottom.

 

[MikePJ]

Thanks! That’s not quite as bad as I’d feared then - a dead unit could potentially be recovered with a portable generator. It would block the line for ages, but might be a better option in some circumstances.

 

[EveningStarr]

Could Rail Adventure be contracted for some 20s or even 43s (provided clearance up the Taff) with special couplers attached? They have barrier wagons to convert, but if there's a way of doing the locos then it wouldn't matter which way they're going. I say Rail Adventure as they have been involved in the Old Dalby moves, but I daresay other loco operators could do it, even TfW themselves with a 67? It need only be for a year or two (or three or four...) until the whole fleet is in service properly and could hopefully rescue themselves. Park one at Canton and one at Treherbert sidings for ease of action in an emergency.

IIRC, the 37s rescuing the 769s could only go at 5mph due to it being an adaptor coupling, so ideally a better solution could be found.

 

[The Planner]

Could Rail Adventure be contracted for some 20s or even 43s (provided clearance up the Taff) with special couplers attached? They have barrier wagons to convert, but if there's a way of doing the locos then it wouldn't matter which way they're going. I say Rail Adventure as they have been involved in the Old Dalby moves, but I daresay other loco operators could do it, even TfW themselves with a 67? It need only be for a year or two (or three or four...) until the whole fleet is in service properly and could hopefully rescue themselves. Park one at Canton and one at Treherbert sidings for ease of action in an emergency.

IIRC, the 37s rescuing the 769s could only go at 5mph due to it being an adaptor coupling, so ideally a better solution could be found.

Its a very expensive operation with a third party.

 

[zwk500]

Could Rail Adventure be contracted for some 20s or even 43s (provided clearance up the Taff) with special couplers attached? They have barrier wagons to convert, but if there's a way of doing the locos then it wouldn't matter which way they're going. I say Rail Adventure as they have been involved in the Old Dalby moves, but I daresay other loco operators could do it, even TfW themselves with a 67? It need only be for a year or two (or three or four...) until the whole fleet is in service properly and could hopefully rescue themselves. Park one at Canton and one at Treherbert sidings for ease of action in an emergency.

IIRC, the 37s rescuing the 769s could only go at 5mph due to it being an adaptor coupling, so ideally a better solution could be found.

It's not just the locos though, it's the staff as well. Would these emergency 20s have drivers on duty from first service to last day in, day out?

 

[Caaardiff]

There's a Class 67 rescue at Canton for the Mk4's and a mainline Driver generally available in the event of a failure. The question then would be, who will drive it on the Valleys?