Could TfL remove or heavily reduce buses in the central area?

[Bletchleyite]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-levels-of-service.208630/page-2#post-4768222

That's going to be much the same scenario over much of the UK.
Central London is going to be very interesting to watch, with dramatically reduced numbers, and TfL short of money.

Clearly TfL needs to save money, and it's usually regarded that buses in central London are needed because the Tube otherwise wouldn't cope.

But what if demand never returns and the Tube can cope? Could we see a switch to a German style system where pretty much all buses terminate at a local Tube or rail station for connections into the centre? Hamburg for example (a large city, though nowhere near as large as London, more like Manchester in scale) has only about 10 bus routes penetrating its central area.

The cost of providing enough vehicles to run buses in central London where speeds are so low must be immense.

There's also the issue that the bus offers a cheap option for those on limited incomes - but could that be dealt with another way, e.g. by way of means tested discounts on Tube/rail?

 

[JonathanH]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-levels-of-service.208630/page-2#post-4768222

Clearly TfL needs to save money, and it's usually regarded that buses in central London are needed because the Tube otherwise wouldn't cope.

But what if demand never returns and the Tube can cope? Could we see a switch to a German style system where pretty much all buses terminate at a local Tube or rail station for connections into the centre? Hamburg for example (a large city, though nowhere near as large as London, more like Manchester in scale) has only about 10 bus routes penetrating its central area.

The cost of providing enough vehicles to run buses in central London where speeds are so low must be immense.

There's also the issue that the bus offers a cheap option for those on limited incomes - but could that be dealt with another way, e.g. by way of means tested discounts on Tube/rail?

The trouble with your idea is that TfL makes money from 'mixed-mode' travel. Taking a bus then the underground triggers two fares (although in central London this is offset by capping). If you changed the fare structure to only charge one fare, TfL would lose out. If you didn't change the fare structure, people would have to pay more. It isn't just a case of capacity.

Clearly your idea would also lead to a reduction in employment of bus drivers and the relevant supply chain.

Is the operation of bus services into central London really only about capacity? I find that unlikely. The underground doesn't cover every place buses go and there are times when it is more convenient to use a bus than the underground, particularly for less able bodied people.

 

[London Trains]

Theres no way buses could be removed in Central London, since there are a lot of areas that are not well served by rail or tube.

What needs to happen is that they need to be slowly reduced/removed from specific locations well served by the tube. Two examples of this are:

Oxford Street - where the road should be pedestrianised and only used at night for loading if the shops need it.

Bank - from every direction apart from east, the nearest tube station (Monument / Mansion House / St Pauls / Moorgate / Liverpool Street) is barely two bus stops away. Nowhere in the area is more than 5 - 10 min walk away from a tube station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly your idea would also lead to a reduction in employment of bus drivers and the relevant supply chain.

Well, err, yes, of course cutting bus services would do that. But the bus service is not a job creation scheme, so the possibility of driver redundancies should not be considered (either way) in determining the size of the required network.

 

[Hadders]

I think we could see a reduction in the number of buses in central London combined with a significant hike on fares for Underground travel in zone 1. This would be to discourage short distance journeys on public transport and trying to get people to walk or cycle more.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Buses don't serve an equivalent function to tubes (in terms of length of journey for which they're most suited, closeness of access to destination, etc), even where they follow much the same route. Both are needed (and indeed recent bus route cutbacks need reversing) if everyone is to have optimal mobility around central London.

Once private cars are finally booted out of central London, buses will have greater patronage - and they'll run more efficiently (in the sense of moving faster, so being able to make more journeys and hence carry more passnegers for a given number of vehicles).

Cutting buses just makes journeys slower and less convenient for people who need to rush around London. For people not relying on them, it's an interesting theoretical game - "Ooh look, that train goes where that bus goes - we don't need both." But the impact on real people's lives would be seriously negative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cutting buses just makes journeys slower and less convenient for people who need to rush around London.

Eh? Buses don't "rush" anywhere, and if you are in a hurry to get around London they are mostly no use whatsoever. They are generally slower than cycling, even relatively leisurely cycling using something like a "Sadiq cycle" or whatever you might call them these days. If you need to rush around London the Tube (paying attention to which are the fast and slow bits) is the way to go, with a taxi coming second in most cases.

 

[edwin_m]

There are still relatively few central area Tube stations with step-free access - within the Circle line only Bond Street, TCR and Green Park plus Bank for DLR only. With the funding situation and the huge cost of converting them this isn't going to change much for the foreseeable future (I think there's only the rest of Bank in the pipeline). All buses are step-free and wheelchair-accessible. So reducing central area buses risks disenfranchising a group who don't have much alternative - people who can't use steps probably can't cycle either and may have difficulty in walking more than a short distance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are still relatively few central area Tube stations with step-free access - within the Circle line only Bond Street, TCR and Green Park plus Bank for DLR only. With the funding situation and the huge cost of converting them this isn't going to change much for the foreseeable future (I think there's only the rest of Bank in the pipeline). All buses are step-free and wheelchair-accessible. So reducing central area buses risks disenfranchising a group who don't have much alternative - people who can't use steps probably can't cycle either and may have difficulty in walking more than a short distance.

Though given how often I see (or rather don't see) a wheelchair user on the bus, could it be cheaper to give wheelchair users black cab travel at the price of a bus fare than retain the network purely for them?

 

[edwin_m]

Though given how often I see (or rather don't see) a wheelchair user on the bus, could it be cheaper to give wheelchair users black cab travel at the price of a bus fare than retain the network purely for them?

Wheelchairs are the worst case and the benchmark for accessibility, but there are also people with lesser infirmities who can't manage steps, as well as people with heavy luggage and small children in pushchairs who may find a bus easier to use than a Tube. I presume English wheelchair users get free London bus travel under ENCTS anyway.

 

[mmh]

Wheelchairs are the worst case and the benchmark for accessibility, but there are also people with lesser infirmities who can't manage steps, as well as people with heavy luggage and small children in pushchairs who may find a bus easier to use than a Tube. I presume English wheelchair users get free London bus travel under ENCTS anyway.

Wheelchair travel on London buses is mostly effectively free regardless of the passenger having a pass or not as other than on a very small number of single door buses wheelchair access is via the centre door and other than on "new routemaster" and former "red arrow" routes which have buses with card readers at the centre door a wheelchair user doesn't pass a reader.

 

[Ianno87]

There are still relatively few central area Tube stations with step-free access - within the Circle line only Bond Street, TCR and Green Park plus Bank for DLR only. With the funding situation and the huge cost of converting them this isn't going to change much for the foreseeable future (I think there's only the rest of Bank in the pipeline). All buses are step-free and wheelchair-accessible. So reducing central area buses risks disenfranchising a group who don't have much alternative - people who can't use steps probably can't cycle either and may have difficulty in walking more than a short distance.

Crossrail (when it eventually opens) will be transformational in this respect, and is one of the biggest bugbears of its delay.

 

[London Trains]

Very expensive but if the money existed, I would just build trams down many of the busy roads throughout Central London and close them to road traffic completely. The stops would have roughly similar spacing to bus stops. The roads would be resurfaced to be fully pavement (potentially with designs in them) and the tram tracks would go through the middle completely flush with the road.

They would be fully accessible and have completely level access at the platforms, so the need for any taxis would significantly decrease.

 

[Bevan Price]

Very expensive but if the money existed, I would just build trams down many of the busy roads throughout Central London and close them to road traffic completely. The stops would have roughly similar spacing to bus stops. The roads would be resurfaced to be fully pavement (potentially with designs in them) and the tram tracks would go through the middle completely flush with the road.

They would be fully accessible and have completely level access at the platforms, so the need for any taxis would significantly decrease.

And how would you deliver goods for shops to sell??

 

[London Trains]

And how would you deliver goods for shops to sell??

Allow access from roughly 12-6am potentially. Also generally the shops have another road, usually a minor road behind which would more than likely not be closed.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

If I remember correctly the London bus network loses something like £800 million a year, and that was pre lockdown. So from a financial standpoint it would make a lot of sense to reduce bus services in Central London.

However I think turning London Carbon Neutral should and certainly was a much bigger priority and busses will play a major role in achieving this meaning that eradicating the private car from central London should probably still be the main priority.

However I do think the pedestrianisation of streets such as Oxford Street and increased cycling levels should be considered or re-considered in the case of Oxford Street and this may allow some bus services in central London to be withdrawn or rationalised.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Eh? Buses don't "rush" anywhere, and if you are in a hurry to get around London they are mostly no use whatsoever. They are generally slower than cycling, even relatively leisurely cycling using something like a "Sadiq cycle" or whatever you might call them these days. If you need to rush around London the Tube (paying attention to which are the fast and slow bits) is the way to go, with a taxi coming second in most cases.

Wen I'm not cycling, shorthish journeys running errands round central London were always quicker by bus than by tube (and some errands are more appropriate by pubic transport than by bike anyway). I say "were", since several of the routes I frequently used have been cut or cut back; and the rear doors being closed on the "New Routemasters", stopping hopping on and off [well, stopping hopping on; I can still open the door myself and hop off, though not in as many situations as when they were open anyway] has added a lot to my journey time in some cases. But even with the worsening bus services, in places with a variety of routes running I can usually get down the road on a bus, and be where I want to be, before I'd even have got to the nearest tube station and got down to the platform. Yes, the TfL hire bikes can sometimes be a speedy option; but bad weather, shopping to carry, and so on, often means needing a bus.

A distance of one or two stops on a tube in central London, unless origin and destination are right on top of the stations, is rarely quicker than walking; buses over that distance (depending on traffic conditions) can often be much quicker than walking.

 

[deltic]

It’s TfL policy to do exactly what the OP is asking so yes futher large scale reduction in bus services in central London will happen. With the congestion charge now £15. 7 days a week and extended to the evening, private car use in the centre continues to decline but has little impact on bus use.

 

[edwin_m]

Crossrail (when it eventually opens) will be transformational in this respect, and is one of the biggest bugbears of its delay.

By my criterion of stations within the Circle Line, Bond Street and TCR are already step-free, presumably because relevant Crossrail works are already complete. So are Paddington, Farringdon, Barbican and Liverpool Street on the Circle itself. So Crossrail only has Moorgate still to add.

 

[Ianno87]

By my criterion of stations within the Circle Line, Bond Street and TCR are already step-free, presumably because relevant Crossrail works are already complete.

Although to get to those stations, you have to have also got *on* at an accessible station as well. Plus the small matter of good luck actually getting space to get on a crush loaded peak hour tube if you're a wheelchair user.

 

[edwin_m]

Although to get to those stations, you have to have also got *on* at an accessible station as well. Plus the small matter of good luck actually getting space to get on a crush loaded peak hour tube if you're a wheelchair user.

Indeed. In the context of journeys within the center of London, which is the topic for this thread, there are very few that can be done using only step-free Tube stations. So buses are needed both for the many journeys that can't, and to allow people who can't manage steps to make the final leg of their journey from the nearest convenient accessible station. IF the buses aren't provided then a lot of them will use taxis, which have very similar downsides as if they had all used cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. In the context of journeys within the center of London, which is the topic for this thread, there are very few that can be done using only step-free Tube stations. So buses are needed both for the many journeys that can't, and to allow people who can't manage steps to make the final leg of their journey from the nearest convenient accessible station. IF the buses aren't provided then a lot of them will use taxis, which have very similar downsides as if they had all used cars.

I suspect this is not a very large number of people, though, and so the effect wouldn't be anything like if everyone used cars.

 

[deltic]

Although to get to those stations, you have to have also got *on* at an accessible station as well. Plus the small matter of good luck actually getting space to get on a crush loaded peak hour tube if you're a wheelchair user.

I dont think there is much risk of seeing crush loaded peak hour tubes for some time