Could Southern run additional services during Overground suspensions?

[amarshe]

Appreciate this is a first world London centric thread. But with the London overground suspensions today south of new cross to Croydon, could someone somewhere have persuaded southern to run more trains? Northbound they were 30 mins intervals with five coaches and people not getting on north of new cross…

Realise this may be many people not seeing posters about replacement bus services (I didn’t until much later)

 

[zwk500]

Are you asking if Southern could have planned to run more trains than they did, or that Southern should have run unplanned relief trains?

 

[amarshe]

Are you asking if Southern could have planned to run more trains than they did, or that Southern should have run unplanned relief trains?

I know they could , but why didn’t they? Is it purely politics in the interaction between TfL/DfT?

 

[zwk500]

I know they could , but why didn’t they? Is it purely politics in the interaction between TfL/DfT?

I'm still wondering which you're asking. If you're asking 'why wasn't there planned to be more trains running?' it's a very different answer to the question 'Why did Southern not magic trains from nowhere once the planned service was overwhelmed?'

 

[Hadders]

Have Southern got sufficient rolling stock, and sufficient drivers to run additional services. Are sufficient paths available, along with platform space at the terminal stations.

I don't know the answers to these questions but it's often not as simple as it seems...

 

[physics34]

They could run more stock at weekends theres no doubt, but it probably messes up their stock allocation for the monday morning. They always seem very fixated on that. So those 5 cars couldve been ten if they tried

 

[JonathanH]

Northbound they were 30 mins intervals with five coaches and people not getting on north of new cross…

Weren't they actually running at 15 minute intervals with 8 car trains on the Caterham / Tattenham services, albeit with one Crystal Palace cycle missing?

The question isn't really whether Southern should do more. Service provision is up to London Overground to cover their missing services.

 

[Bensonby]

I travelled from Sydenham today up to London Bridge and the service was four an hour: half hourly from Tattenham Corner and half hourly from Crystal Palace. Seem a perfectly reasonable service for a Sunday.

 

[Javelin_55]

Southern (and in fact GTR as a whole) should have just about enough stock for a few extra shuttles but definitely not enough drivers at present. They currently aren't even able to run the full planned timetable due to so many jobs going uncovered so additional services aren't really feasible in my opinion.

 

[30907]

But with the London overground suspensions today south of new cross to Croydon, could someone somewhere have persuaded southern to run more trains? Northbound they were 30 mins intervals with five coaches and people not getting on north of new cross…

Do you mean at London Bridge?

 

[ctrh136]

I wonder what will happen when Southern no longer serve Anerley / Penge West in these situations.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder what will happen when Southern no longer serve Anerley / Penge West in these situations.

Passengers will need to catch local buses to Crystal Palace or Sydenham (or other convenient stations). It won't be Southern's problem.

The problem appears to be that if London Overground can't run to Canada Water, they have nowhere sensible to turn their service and just don't run.

 

[amarshe]

I travelled from Sydenham today up to London Bridge and the service was four an hour: half hourly from Tattenham Corner and half hourly from Crystal Palace. Seem a perfectly reasonable service for a Sunday.

Agree that is better than the Saturday service which was two trains an hour! So why did they just run two an hour on Saturday?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2022 ==

I'm still wondering which you're asking. If you're asking 'why wasn't there planned to be more trains running?' it's a very different answer to the question 'Why did Southern not magic trains from nowhere once the planned service was overwhelmed?'

I just wondered if the fragmented system is why the service was sub-optimal. It’s also weird that other posters say the services was four per hour on Sunday but two on Saturday…

 

[JonathanH]

Agree that is better than the Saturday service which was two trains an hour! So why did they just run two an hour on Saturday?

That is all Southern were scheduled to run. It isn't Southern's responsibility to backfill the absence of London Overground's services.

You could equally ask why London Overground don't have running rights or route knowledge into London Bridge when it isn't possible to terminate at Canada Water.

 

[amarshe]

That is all Southern were scheduled to run. It isn't Southern's responsibility to backfill the absence of London Overground's services.

You could equally ask why London Overground don't have running rights or route knowledge into London Bridge when it isn't possible to terminate at Canada Water.

Oh I know all that; and this thread has answers my original question that there is little to no co-ordination. For instance in an ideal world someone could have said to southern “hi, we see you’re running a full service on Sunday but a half hourly one on Saturday; any chance you could run a full service on Saturday too?”

But it current system does not encourage that…

Would be nice if they could get overground running rights and route knowledge to run via London Bridge and Thameslink, thence reverse onto the north London line and terminate at Highbury and Islington

 

[londonteacher]

that…

Would be nice if they could get overground running rights and route knowledge to run via London Bridge and Thameslink, thence reverse onto the north London line and terminate at Highbury and Islington

I know that wasn’t a serious suggestion but how ridiculous would that be!

 

[hkstudent]

Oh I know all that; and this thread has answers my original question that there is little to no co-ordination. For instance in an ideal world someone could have said to southern “hi, we see you’re running a full service on Sunday but a half hourly one on Saturday; any chance you could run a full service on Saturday too?”

But it current system does not encourage that…

Would be nice if they could get overground running rights and route knowledge to run via London Bridge and Thameslink, thence reverse onto the north London line and terminate at Highbury and Islington

There's often no coordination among TOCs for rail replacement services, so there's even be less hope to have coordination between DfT and TfL.

In TfL I think, they have fulfilled their obligation for providing replacement bus to run on the section that they couldn't run. Any extra running would cost extra and TfL can't bear the extra cost for running the non essential bit.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s not about coordination, or lack thereof.

it is about availability of resources.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Appreciate this is a first world London centric thread. But with the London overground suspensions today south of new cross to Croydon, could someone somewhere have persuaded southern to run more trains? Northbound they were 30 mins intervals with five coaches and people not getting on north of new cross…

Realise this may be many people not seeing posters about replacement bus services (I didn’t until much later)

Southern cannot run its existing timetable, not enough crews and stock. There's no resources to run anything additional

 

[Timmyd]

Also a mystery why Southern runs 4 tph on this line but only on Sunday, and only 2 the rest of the week, even Mon-Fri peaks. And at 5 cars only the service is the worst it’s ever been. They’ve been more than happy to let their service decline, no doubt knowing - as with the forthcoming withdrawal of all of their trains to Anerley and Penge W - that LO will cover their backsides

 

[JonathanH]

They’ve been more than happy to let their service decline, no doubt knowing - as with the forthcoming withdrawal of all of their trains to Anerley and Penge W - that LO will cover their backsides

If there were ever to be more services along the route it would be LO that will run them. Indeed, one of the reasons LO acquired the six 5-car 710s was to displace 378s to increase the LO service to Crystal Palace.

 

[Timmyd]

If there were ever to be more services along the route it would be LO that will run them. Indeed, one of the reasons LO acquired the six 5-car 710s was to displace 378s to increase the LO service to Crystal Palace.

But why? The Overground is great but doesn’t serve Central London. Also the Canada Water interchange, the way most people would access central London by the LO route, is at capacity much of the day. Southern managed to maintain 4tph until Covid and 8 cars until the premature 455 withdrawal.

Also how would more Palace Overgrounds fit in the timetable? Could the ELL core take another 4tph (aside from how the service would inevitably become uneven)

 

[Bald Rick]

Also a mystery why Southern runs 4 tph on this line but only on Sunday, and only 2 the rest of the week, even Mon-Fri peaks. And at 5 cars only the service is the worst it’s ever been. They’ve been more than happy to let their service decline, no doubt knowing - as with the forthcoming withdrawal of all of their trains to Anerley and Penge W - that LO will cover their backsides

It’s being made consistent next month.

 

[zwk500]

Also how would more Palace Overgrounds fit in the timetable? Could the ELL core take another 4tph (aside from how the service would inevitably become uneven)

Max capacity of the ELL is 20tph, Currently there are 16tph. However 2tph are earmarked for Clapham Junction (when/if they can make it work) and I believe the other 2 are more theoretical than realistically operable.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Also a mystery why Southern runs 4 tph on this line but only on Sunday, and only 2 the rest of the week, even Mon-Fri peaks. And at 5 cars only the service is the worst it’s ever been. They’ve been more than happy to let their service decline, no doubt knowing - as with the forthcoming withdrawal of all of their trains to Anerley and Penge W - that LO will cover their backsides

Because the Sunday timetable wasn't rewritten like the weekday timetable was

 

[Peregrine 4903]

That is all Southern were scheduled to run. It isn't Southern's responsibility to backfill the absence of London Overground's services.

You could equally ask why London Overground don't have running rights or route knowledge into London Bridge when it isn't possible to terminate at Canada Water.

They have tried to go into London Bridge but can't do it for various reasons.