Could reversible seating be introduced to UK trains?

[railfan99]

When one steps into an Avanti WC, GWR, LNER or TPE long distance set, provided cleaning has occurred the carriages look impressive, especially given table seating.

However all operators seem unwilling to introduce reversible seating. I'm assuming manufacturers never discuss it with DfT or TOCs as the subject may never receive any consideration.

This would add to tare weight and occasionally, the mechanism to turn seats around might play up.

It might also mean an extra duty for conductor/guards/cleaners if practice became to have all seats (other than table ones) facing forwards, which is the direction many like to travel in.

Other modes largely don't require travellers to sit backwards, so wouldn't reversible seating be a popular innovation?

Just as looking at a blank wall isn't fun (hello LNER). I'd prefer not to sit backwards.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When one steps into an Avanti WC, GWR, LNER or TPE long distance set, provided cleaning has occurred the carriages look impressive, especially given table seating.

However all operators seem unwilling to introduce reversible seating. I'm assuming manufacturers never discuss it with DfT or TOCs as the subject may never receive any consideration.

This would add to tare weight and occasionally, the mechanism to turn seats around might play up.

It might also mean an extra duty for conductor/guards/cleaners if practice became to have all seats (other than table ones) facing forwards, which is the direction many like to travel in.

Other modes largely don't require travellers to sit backwards, so wouldn't reversible seating be a popular innovation?

Just as looking at a blank wall isn't fun (hello LNER). I'd prefer not to sit backwards.

Sure, but you can choose to take a forward seat. What I couldn’t choose to do on Sydney Trains or NSW Trainlink, was take a table seat. And that’s because the reversible seats often come at the expense of tables.

(The simple to use ones where you simply give the top of the seat a push and it reverses, anyway. No one wants those complicated floor pedal contraptions where you have to practically hug the seat and twist your body at the same time, aka XPT.)

 

[railfan99]

(The simple to use ones where you simply give the top of the seat a push and it reverses, anyway. No one wants those complicated floor pedal contraptions where you have to practically hug the seat and twist your body at the same time, aka XPT.)

You are confusing 'tipover' seating with what I had in mind, which would require a pedal or similar. 'Tipover' seating lacks reclining ability.

The latter (provided they work properly) aren't hard to reverse. Some rail staff can do it with one hand.

Table seats look classy and are great for groups of four, such as families, but the majority of travellers in the UK are solo or two people.

There can be as few as three first class seats in (if I have the car designation correct) car K of Avanti WC Pendolinos that face forwards. I had to travel backwards last year from Scotland south last year as the limited number of forward-facing seats were occupied.

 

[Topological]

Certainly there are trains where the seats reverse nicely and recline, for example China's high speed service. At the terminus all the seats are spun with very little effort by the crew cleaning the train.

But, you pay the price of not having tables, which the British would not be happy about. I travel alone and use tables to work on my laptop. I am definitely not the only one. Taking that option away would not be popular.

 

[railfan99]

But, you pay the price of not having tables, which the British would not be happy about. I travel alone and use tables to work on my laptop. I am definitely not the only one. Taking that option away would not be popular.

True, no fixed tables, but airline-style tray tables could be included so the majority of passengers have access to one.

At present, AFAIK, some passengers lack access to fixed tables.

While hopefully not permanent, hasn't the decline in business travel since COVID meant fewer are using laptops on board?

 

[BeijingDave]

Certainly there are trains where the seats reverse nicely and recline, for example China's high speed service. At the terminus all the seats are spun with very little effort by the crew cleaning the train.

But, you pay the price of not having tables, which the British would not be happy about. I travel alone and use tables to work on my laptop. I am definitely not the only one. Taking that option away would not be popular.

This is true, but after wear and tear they sometimes don't lock in properly. I have sat on such a wobbly seat for a 4-hour journey from Beijing to Nanjing and I would rather have sat backwards than in a wobbling forward facing seat.

 

[Flying Snail]

You are confusing 'tipover' seating with what I had in mind, which would require a pedal or similar. 'Tipover' seating lacks reclining ability.

The latter (provided they work properly) aren't hard to reverse. Some rail staff can do it with one hand.

Table seats look classy and are great for groups of four, such as families, but the majority of travellers in the UK are solo or two people.

There can be as few as three first class seats in (if I have the car designation correct) car K of Avanti WC Pendolinos that face forwards. I had to travel backwards last year from Scotland south last year as the limited number of forward-facing seats were occupied.

AFAIR the pendolinos (and voyagers) have most of the seats back to the direction of travel in the driving cars due to some stupidly OTT safety nonsense that was insisted on at the time.

It is only recently with the reduction in 1st class coaches and the splitting of those that remain into 1st and standard premium that it is an issue. It was pretty rare before that anyone would have to sit in the airline seats in K if they didn't want to, not to mention how often passengers were strongly encouraged not to be in there at all so it could be used as a staff mess.

Most if not all Shinkansen are equipped with reversable seats, while they will normally be all arranged airline style it is possible to flip a set around to make a bay, without a fixed table though.

 

[Topological]

This is true, but after wear and tear they sometimes don't lock in properly. I have sat on such a wobbly seat for a 4-hour journey from Beijing to Nanjing and I would rather have sat backwards than in a wobbling forward facing seat.

That would not have been good. It has been many years since I was a regular and I never had the issue.

Presumably, there are ways to fix it, but I do get the impression the railways are not getting the follow-up maintenance that they may need. I would like to think that we would do better with such seats in the UK.

I seem to remember having enough space to use my laptop on the tray table, though would not say for definite. At the price differentials I would often take first class (as opposed to their very expensive business class product) on long journeys (still spinning seats).

 

[43096]

When one steps into an Avanti WC, GWR, LNER or TPE long distance set, provided cleaning has occurred the carriages look impressive, especially given table seating.

However all operators seem unwilling to introduce reversible seating. I'm assuming manufacturers never discuss it with DfT or TOCs as the subject may never receive any consideration.

This would add to tare weight and occasionally, the mechanism to turn seats around might play up.

It might also mean an extra duty for conductor/guards/cleaners if practice became to have all seats (other than table ones) facing forwards, which is the direction many like to travel in.

Other modes largely don't require travellers to sit backwards, so wouldn't reversible seating be a popular innovation?

Just as looking at a blank wall isn't fun (hello LNER). I'd prefer not to sit backwards.

Sorry, just no. It’s just rubbish having all airline seating that reverses direction. In any case, if you reverse direction it ought to be all backwards facing for safety reasons (sharp stop/collision throws you into the seat back rather that smacking your head on the seat in front).

A mix of airline style and bays of four is a good compromise on long distance services - the Mark 3 76 seat layout is an excellent example. But there ought to be a “selfish surcharge” on single occupancy of bays of four.

This is true, but after wear and tear they sometimes don't lock in properly. I have sat on such a wobbly seat for a 4-hour journey from Beijing to Nanjing and I would rather have sat backwards than in a wobbling forward facing seat.

That feels like a safety risk - the extra mechanism cannot be as safe as a fixed seat in a collision.

 

[duffield]

On balance, I'd reluctantly say no.

It would be nice to have if done right, but on the downside it's extra expense upfront, and then something more to go wrong and so more maintenance burden.

Our trains are quite complicated and expensive enough already, and the pressures are all to contain costs, not increase them. Increased costs would need to be paid for by passengers and/or taxpayers. I think the hard-nosed test is "will this influence a significant number of people's transport choices in any way?" and the answer is "no".

One thing that could potentially be done is to at least ensure a roughly equal balance of forward and backward facing seats in future rolling stock; as already commented on, some coaches have nearly all seats facing one way. If you have a more even split at least most people will be able to face forward on the more lightly loaded services if they want to.

 

[Flying Snail]

One thing that could potentially be done is to at least ensure a roughly equal balance of forward and backward facing seats in future rolling stock; as already commented on, some coaches have nearly all seats facing one way. If you have a more even split at least most people will be able to face forward on the more lightly loaded services if they want to.

As long as it is not done by having opposite direction airline seats across the aisle, nothing worse than having an aisle seat and facing someone else a few inches away.

 

[LowLevel]

People like tables, and the majority aren't too worried about travelling backwards I find. If anything the complaints tend to be about a lack of fixed table space. The UK loading gauge means suitably sized folding tables can be an issue.

 

[duffield]

As long as it is not done by having opposite direction airline seats across the aisle, nothing worse than having an aisle seat and facing someone else a few inches away.

I'd go for something with four seat tables in the middle of the coach, and all the airline seats facing one way at one end and vice-versa. The tables form a natural and space efficient seat direction change.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Class 114 DMUs had one row in the first class that was reversible.

Inside a Class 114 DMU

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

www.railcar.co.uk

 

[Peter0124]

Anything that proposes taking tables away is a no from me
Theres just two tables in the LNER unreserved coach for example which is very few.

 

[HSTEd]

Would reversible seat mechanisms truly be workable in an interior as cramped as those found on British trains?

Otherwise seems a big expense and maintenance burden. Plus arguments over which way the seats should be between passengers.

 

[vuzzeho]

Would reversible seat mechanisms truly be workable in an interior as cramped as those found on British trains?

Otherwise seems a big expense and maintenance burden. Plus arguments over which way the seats should be between passengers.

I’d expect that’s a big reason why. The mechanism for reversing, as well the space required to have the seats swivel without touching anything would probably lead to very small seats.

 

[Topological]

Would reversible seat mechanisms truly be workable in an interior as cramped as those found on British trains?

Otherwise seems a big expense and maintenance burden. Plus arguments over which way the seats should be between passengers.

To be fair, it is impressive how they get the 3 seats to turn on the 3+2 in 2nd class on Chinese trains. Given we do not have any 3 seats wide the need for space is much reduced.

I am not sure I want to see reversing seats, but it should work practically.

 

[railfan99]

People like tables, and the majority aren't too worried about travelling backwards I find. If anything the complaints tend to be about a lack of fixed table space. The UK loading gauge means suitably sized folding tables can be an issue.

Other modes rarely have backwards-facing seats.

A small number of airlines in business class do: Etihad is one.

Urban buses may have a variety of seating configurations (including longitudinal seats) but travellers often only have brief journeys using this mode.

I've not been on a long distance road coach in the UK but most if not all seats are likely to be forward facing. The same applies to private cars and vans.

If you took a survey, you might find most prefer forward-facing travel.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think that preference heavily depends on whether you are travelling alone or in a group (even if only two people). It is often preferable to be ‘face-to-face’ in terms of body language, sub-conscious lip reading, etc..

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suppose one factor is that buses only travel in one direction. Ditto aircraft. Trams and trains, on the other hand, are often bidirectional. And "old" trams often did have reversible seats - of a very basic and hard design. I suspect that the main reasons people might want to reverse seats on a reversible vehicle such as a train or tram (were such a thing available) are
- to face (or not) the direction of travel. Fixed seating always renders, say, half of the seats on a train "wrong".
- to face ("accompany") other members of a group.

 

[yoyothehobo]

All the Shinkansen in Japan have the same 3+2 reversible seating, turned at the end of the route. No tables, certainly not in standard class anyway

 

[PeterC]

Other modes rarely have backwards-facing seats.

The armed forces used to use coaches with all rearward facing seats. I remember travelling in one of the way to a cadet camp in the 60s.

 

[NoRoute]

I wonder if there's a solution using compact pedestal chairs with a slender fixed table between, that way people can spin them round to face the direction of travel and anyone wanting to form a group can spin them to face each other, albeit with a smaller table.

You might even be able to get rid of the fixed table to save space and improve flexibility of use of space, by installing a pull-out tray built in to the chair itself, you see this design of chair in places like lecture theatres and business conference centres, makes for quite a nice design as it's there if you need it, but doesn't clutter the place when not required.

 

[stevieinselby]

True, no fixed tables, but airline-style tray tables could be included so the majority of passengers have access to one.

Seat-back tray tables rely on the back of the seat remaining the back of the seat, and not becoming the front of the seat when you reverse the seat at the end of the line.

 

[joieman]

Seat-back tray tables rely on the back of the seat remaining the back of the seat, and not becoming the front of the seat when you reverse the seat at the end of the line.

Theoretically, a table could be integrated into the front of the seat, but I think keeping the seats clean might become a problem.

 

[Trainbike46]

Introducing reversible seats is possible, as shown by the fact that certain other railways have them.

However, introducing them would be a bad idea:
- Extra mechanisms that can break, leading to more maintenance
- Extra staff time needed to reverse the seats
- you're replacing the current varied seating arrangements (table seats, forward and backward facing side by side seating) with a single type of seating
- Most reversible seats take more space, potentially reducing seating capacity of the train

introducing this would be taking choice away from passengers, many people prefer table seats over airline seats, and some people actually prefer travelling backwards. If the chosen implementation reduces the number of seats, the result will be that more people don't get a seat at all on UK IC services, which is an even worse deal. On top of that, it would increase cost (maintenance, staff time to reverse them, etc.), and I certainly don't think we should increase costs to deliver a worse experience!

 

[railfan99]

Introducing reversible seats is possible, as shown by the fact that certain other railways have them.

However, introducing them would be a bad idea:
- Extra mechanisms that can break, leading to more maintenance
- Extra staff time needed to reverse the seats
- you're replacing the current varied seating arrangements (table seats, forward and backward facing side by side seating) with a single type of seating
- Most reversible seats take more space, potentially reducing seating capacity of the train

introducing this would be taking choice away from passengers, many people prefer table seats over airline seats, and some people actually prefer travelling backwards. If the chosen implementation reduces the number of seats, the result will be that more people don't get a seat at all on UK IC services, which is an even worse deal. On top of that, it would increase cost (maintenance, staff time to reverse them, etc.), and I certainly don't think we should increase costs to deliver a worse experience!

Seating facing the direction of travel is a great experience. It isn't normal to sit backwards.

If it wasn't, why does every other mode largely adopt it?

I'd argue most passengers prefer this. 'Proof' is difficult but have a look at any rail operator's seating configuration worldwide that offers a choice between facing forwards and backwards: most who enter an unreserved carriage will choose the forward-facing seats. Latecomers take the ones facing backwards.

You say 'most reversible seats take more space' but isn't this even more true of table seats?

 

[Trainbike46]

Seating facing the direction of travel is a great experience. It isn't normal to sit backwards.

If it wasn't, why does every other mode largely adopt it?

I'd argue most passengers prefer this. 'Proof' is difficult but have a look at any rail operator's seating configuration worldwide that offers a choice between facing forwards and backwards: most who enter an unreserved carriage will choose the forward-facing seats. Latecomers take the ones facing backwards.

you're arguing to replace a range of seats (forward, backward, table, etc.) with a single option for everyone - this is worse.

As far as I can tell, many people do not particularly care about seating direction, many people prefer facing forward, and a minority prefer facing backwards. Offering a range of options makes more people happy, and is therefore better.

You say 'most reversible seats take more space' but isn't this even more true of table seats?

Current layouts are generally good, and certainly aren't all table seats.

If you were to take the layout from a current 80x, count the number of seats in a carriage, and then try to figure out how many reversible seats you could fit, I suspect you'd lose quite a lot of seats. Given how busy most intercity services are, we really do need those seats. The amount of seats in an all-table layout is irrelevant, because neither of us are proposing that?

 

[30907]

Seating facing the direction of travel is a great experience. It isn't normal to sit backwards.

My preference too, though Seat61 apparently finds US clients worrying about it.

If it wasn't, why does every other mode largely adopt it?

Generally because they are unidirectional and/or have a single entry point, and it makes best use of limited space. Rail vehicles run in both directions (with isolated exceptions) and routinely change direction en route.

Historically, railways copied from the stagecoach which didn't - for practical reasons, more seats per door, which in the UK was relevant right into the 60s.

Luxury vehicles (limousines, executive coaches), London cabs, and modern trams/articulated buses also have "facing and back."

You say 'most reversible seats take more space' but isn't this even more true of table seats?

Which is why most railways don't have many of them!