Could passenger services be extended beyond Alloa, towards Longannet or even Dunfermline?

[Grinner]

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ect-development-for-fife-and-clackmannanshire

Apologies if this has been posted already, but I saw the above link on twitter, and thought it might be of interest.

"Network Rail will shortly begin the next phase of development work between Alloa and Longannet which could see the reinstatement of passenger services between Clackmannanshire and Fife.

Engineers will be carrying out survey work and site and geological investigations which will help inform the development of a project which could enhance and electrify the former freight line and see the introduction of three new stations at Clackmannan, Kincardine and Longannet.

In line with the Scottish Government’s rail decarbonisation agenda, the line would also be electrified with the ambition to introduce a half hourly passenger service between Alloa and Longannet.

This phase of work will include surveying, drilling boreholes, sampling ballast and extracting core samples to assess the condition of the ground under the railway. A variety of equipment including boring rigs, and drills will be used all along the 11.5 km line with work ongoing until the end of the year.

Graeme Stewart, Network Rail’s sponsor for the development work on the new West of Fife enhancement proposals, said: “While it is still at a very early phase, there are ambitious plans to expand the railway and develop transport options that improve connectivity between towns in Clackmannanshire and Fife.

“Our site and geological investigations will help inform the design and development of an enhancement project which we will submit for review to Transport Scotland.

“As well as the potential for better connectivity on faster greener, electric trains, this scale of investment to improve our transport infrastructure will deliver economic advantage, expansion of communities, better access to employment and education opportunities and expanded social and leisure options for people all across the area.”"

 

[alangla]

To Longannet? Seems a bit pointless - Kincardine already has regular buses via the M876/M80 to Glasgow that I imagine cater for a lot of the traffic and would be quicker than an all-stops trundle via Alloa/Stirling etc. Building Clackmannan Parkway somewhere around here - https://goo.gl/maps/nxU7YQY8Kr7dZ8Gg7 - might be worthwhile though.

 

[Chris Butler]

As someone form way down in Taunton, why would you not run through to Dunfermeline ? One step at a time, type approach ?

With a closed power station and the Forth 'in the way', Longannet doesn't look like a 'hub' for transport. No offence intended. I'm just ignorant of that area.

 

[AMD]

I would suggest that a station at Longannet is a bit pointless unless there is something bigger than possibly Talgo coming along, as there is nothing there plus it's close to Kincardine.
This announcement feels like a phase 1, as it completely misses the communities between Longannet and Dunfermline, so possibly initially just an extension of the Alloa line; plus the business case probably stacks up better, whereas I have a feeling that business case for Culross, Valleyfield etc will be a bit weaker - after all it was closed to passengers as far back as 1930 due to lack of demand.

 

[mcmad]

Its based on the fantasy that Talgo will be building an assembly plant there.

The junction at the Dunfermline end faces the wrong way to run any useful service and the route is generally tight and windy so slow speed. The timings on a theoretical Leven - Glasgow all shacks via alloa are likely to be 2 hours minimum.

 

[railjock]

Its based on the fantasy that Talgo will be building an assembly plant there.

The junction at the Dunfermline end faces the wrong way to run any useful service and the route is generally tight and windy so slow speed. The timings on a theoretical Leven - Glasgow all shacks via alloa are likely to be 2 hours minimum.

Indeed. Hard to see it being viable.

 

[alangla]

As someone form way down in Taunton, why would you not run through to Dunfermeline ? One step at a time, type approach ?

With a closed power station and the Forth 'in the way', Longannet doesn't look like a 'hub' for transport. No offence intended. I'm just ignorant of that area.

Stirling to Dunfermline can barely support a bus, I’d be surprised if there’s anything like the demand to support a train. Kincardine is handy for the bridges over the Forth and could be a railhead for further into west Fife, but I suspect most travellers already in their cars would just continue over the Forth and on to the motorway to their destination or at least somewhere closer to it (e.g. Croy or Ingliston P&Rs). As others have said, this seems to be based on Talgo opening at Longannet. More interesting is the comment about half hourly services- would that need more loops or doubling? The last thing that would be sensible would be putting in any sort of tight timing over the single line given the knock-ons are likely to be felt far & wide

 

[adrock1976]

Somebody at Network Rail must have read the thread I started last week in the Speculative Ideas section.

I did a couple of spreadsheets which included the Leven/Methil arm; the first one being Glasgow - Leven/Methil based on an average speed of 60mph between Alloa and Dunfermline, with the second spreadsheet revised to run Glasgow - Dunfermline with the Edinburgh - Cowdenbeath/Glenrothes with Thornton running to Leven/Methil based on broadly 30mph running between Alloa and Dunfermline. As a side note, the Edinburgh - Glenrothes via Kirkcaldy loop train would terminate at Glenrothes, thus breaking the loop service (although for the present day intents and purposes, journey planners and timetables no longer show the loop trains plus they also change head codes too).

See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...h-stirling-dunfermline-and-levenmouth.208342/

 

[mcmad]

Current linespeed between Alloa and Kincardine is 40 or 50 from memory with little chance to increase, from Kincardine to Dunfermline is 35 all the way so you're spreadsheet is way off the timings. As I said above, less than 2 hours would require running non stop through most of it. 2 hrs 30 mins is more realistic for an all stops service.

I believe there is a loop planned at Kincardine and maybe one other but there is already a loop East of Alloa.

 

[rower40]

Nostalgia alert.
I saw a railtour advertised that went over this line. I summoned up courage, and asked a female friend of mine if she'd like to come on an all-day date. I nearly cancelled when the railtour organisers told me that the route had changed, and it wouldn't cover that line after all.
Glad I didn't cancel. The date was just the start, and we've been married 7 years.

 

[Whistler40145]

I would've thought that reopening the full line from Dunfermline to Alloa would be a better business case, but how much traffic currently uses the line?

 

[Altnabreac]

I rather like this idea.

It's incremental so it doesn't break the budget bank, can be quickly implemented and allows an increase in service frequency to Alloa as a bonus.

Longannet would potentially also serve Tulliallan as well as the Talgo plant.

My only disappointment is that it doesn't include feasibility of a station at Cambus / Tullibody. If the timetable gets fixed without the additional station there it becomes harder to insert it later.

By contrast I'm not worried about it not extending further into Fife. There are 4 potential station choices there, decisions over linespeed upgrades, a curve at Dunfermline or not, hard choices over service patterns and overall a much more serious budget required.

Doing it in stages makes it more likely to happen. Good plan.

 

[tbtc]

Seems amazing/ridiculous to think that (whilst we argue about wiring the lines to places like Inverness), the first part of Fife to see electrification would be Kincardine to Longannett, rather than, y'know, the boring/obvious option of replacing the frequent Fife Circle DMUs with something more environmentally friendly...

Running through to Dunfermline seems a bit far fetched though.

Stagecoach have tried and failed to run services from Fife to Stirling, but can run four coaches per hour from Dunfermline - Kincardine - Glasgow (just over an hour from Dunfermline to Glasgow), so I don't know that there'd be a lot of demand for a Dunfermline - Stirling train (whereas Alloa had "turn up and go" frequency to Stirling before the trains came).

Either do it properly or don't bother IMHO - there's not much population east of Alloa until you get to Dunfermline and not much benefit unless you're going to take the kind of "hard choices" referred to above. Unless of course this is just a way of subtly subsidising the infrastructure required to improve the case for a Talgo plant...

 

[mcmad]

Given the massive spend that will be required to fulfil the decarbonisation plan then finding money for fringe projects like this will be tough. I suspect TS are going to have to make some difficult decisions around what to spend their limited funding on. Perhaps this is the reason behind the hints that EK won't be full double track.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Its based on the fantasy that Talgo will be building an assembly plant there.

The junction at the Dunfermline end faces the wrong way to run any useful service and the route is generally tight and windy so slow speed. The timings on a theoretical Leven - Glasgow all shacks via alloa are likely to be 2 hours minimum.

The junction at Dunfermline faces the right way to run a useful service - the 'circular' service that often appears after the consumption of too many crayons is a nightmare that the industry won't consider, circular services are to be avoided like death, taxes and Jedward - you need time somewhere to recover in the event of a delay, so you need an out and back type working with a train sitting stationary somewhere for a few minutes. Trains coming from Alloa/Kincardine should be sent north, Leven is the obvious solution but quite possibly not the best solution, but they do need to go somewhere that they can sit before returning back.

There are other considerations regarding the route between Alloa and Dunfermline, too.

The Longannet and Kincardine power station sites have 275kV grid connections, making them a convenient location for an electrical feeder for the electrification, with the added benefit that Longannget would be a nice location to feed both east into the Fife scheme and to back-up west and the Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane electrification.

 

[Altnabreac]

The junction at Dunfermline faces the right way to run a useful service - the 'circular' service that often appears after the consumption of too many crayons is a nightmare that the industry won't consider, circular services are to be avoided like death, taxes and Jedward - you need time somewhere to recover in the event of a delay, so you need an out and back type working with a train sitting stationary somewhere for a few minutes. Trains coming from Alloa/Kincardine should be sent north, Leven is the obvious solution but quite possibly not the best solution, but they do need to go somewhere that they can sit before returning back.

There are other considerations regarding the route between Alloa and Dunfermline, too.

The Longannet and Kincardine power station sites have 275kV grid connections, making them a convenient location for an electrical feeder for the electrification, with the added benefit that Longannget would be a nice location to feed both east into the Fife scheme and to back-up west and the Stirling-Alloa-Dunblane electrification.

For me the long term best solution is probably turning back at a new station at Halbeath Park and Ride, ideally with a central turn back platform, although it would probably end up being a cheaper Dunblane style arrangement.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

For me the long term best solution is probably turning back at a new station at Halbeath Park and Ride, ideally with a central turn back platform, although it would probably end up being a cheaper Dunblane style arrangement.

Ooooh, yes. That's a great suggestion. There seems to be a good amount of space to extend the P&R, and a nice station towards the east of the existing P&R would serve Crossgates too.

 

[InOban]

The difficulty with Halbeath is the gradient.

 

[John R]

I'm slightly surprised at the extent of investigation required given that the line was only reopened (and for heavy freight trains) a few years ago.

 

[Altnabreac]

I'm slightly surprised at the extent of investigation required given that the line was only reopened (and for heavy freight trains) a few years ago.

Presumably it's not so much freight - passenger conversion but mainly related to the electrification works. Looks very similar to East Kilbride line it that respect in terms of ground condition surveys to determine where piling is needed for masts etc.

 

[Class 170101]

The junction at the Dunfermline end faces the wrong way to run any useful service and the route is generally tight and windy so slow speed. The timings on a theoretical Leven - Glasgow all shacks via alloa are likely to be 2 hours minimum.

The junction at Dunfermline faces the right way to run a useful service - the 'circular' service that often appears after the consumption of too many crayons is a nightmare that the industry won't consider, circular services are to be avoided like death, taxes and Jedward - you need time somewhere to recover in the event of a delay, so you need an out and back type working with a train sitting stationary somewhere for a few minutes. Trains coming from Alloa/Kincardine should be sent north, Leven is the obvious solution but quite possibly not the best solution, but they do need to go somewhere that they can sit before returning back.

I wouldn't discount any route at this stage.

The 'circular' route would be more like bubble (in way its drawn) because it would start and finish at Edinburgh on buffer stops and as such layover would take place at Edinburgh. (Tecnically no different to the existing service via Glenrothes).

It could be a 'long' Edinburgh to Glasgow service via Alloa.

I would think the most likely service would be (as discussed) a Glasgow to Leven service but its a very long journey I would expect and it doesn't exactly seem all that appealing.

 

[norbitonflyer]

"Bubble" routes are still difficult to schedule because the only layover is at a city centre terminus where platform ocupancy is at a premium. (Waterloo, Cannin Street, Glsgow Central). Morevover, any delay on the outward leg will affect inbound services shortly afterwards.

 

[jopsuk]

just because the end-to-end Leven-Glasgow would be slow/unappealing doesn't mean that there's no scope for busy overlapping sections.


The "investigation" part may include looking at the scope for increasing the line speed, as surely there would be a desire to run services faster.

I appreciate much of the land will be contaminated, but as well as the Talgo factory (hah) are there more certain plans for housing at Longannet?

 

[Ginaro]

How much scope is there for increase speeds between Alloa and Dunfermline? As it seems there's not much due to the coastal route, apart from the curves at Torryburn and south of Crossford.

 

[overthewater]

The Concept is rather flawed, with people expecting for too much for little game. Most Leven users want the train to operate to Edinburgh Via Kirkcaldy. Im all in favor of Fife to Glasgow train IF it operate like the current peak time shuttle IE Kirkcaldy - Linlithgow - Glasgow, cost pennies to start up. It's like people are demanding a train just for the sake of it, and that is never a good idea.

As said Stagecoach has tried numerous ideas to operate service to Alloa and Stirling and none of them have been rather busy, the train would have to follow the same route as the bus I doubt it would be any quicker. The plan to just extend the Alloa service to west Fife would take longer than the current stagecoach express services in operation.

Why do the people wish to waste money on this instead of investing the money on better ideas for improving the rail network?