Could Network Rail implement (more) weekday closures?

[blueberry11]

Given that weekend travel feels busier than weekdays, especially since schoolchildren are also out and about, could we get more weekday closures, given that the ECML is closed Saturday to Tuesday?

Major engineering work is taking place between Peterborough and London Kings Cross from Saturday 17 to Tuesday 20 February (inclusive).

Another reason is the change of work patterns from 2019. Since people have shifted from 5 day work to 3, this has made weekday travel quieter than weekend and have also implemented the new flexi season ticket.

So instead of a weekend closure (full Saturday and Sunday), could Network Rail move to a Monday and Tuesday or Thursday to Friday closure since maintenance works are normally planned at least three months in advance?

The only situation where weekday closures may take place currently (other than late night/early morning) is around the Christmas and New Year period.

 

[The Planner]

Given that weekend travel feels busier than weekdays, especially since schoolchildren are also out and about, could we get more weekday closures, given that the ECML is closed Saturday to Tuesday?

Another reason is the change of work patterns from 2019. Since people have shifted from 5 day work to 3, this has made weekday travel quieter than weekend and have also implemented the new flexi season ticket.

So instead of a weekend closure (full Saturday and Sunday), could Network Rail move to a Monday and Tuesday or Thursday to Friday closure since maintenance works are normally planned at least three months in advance?

The only situation where weekday closures may take place currently (other than late night/early morning) is around the Christmas and New Year period.

Already happening and will happen a lot more. It does depend on a myriad of things such as being able to divert freight, isolating rolling stock depots and being able to keep units available and how you move people around the block, not everyone can work at home. However, the revenue loss is still more mid-week than at weekends, regardless of who is footing the bill. Big blocks are planned up to 2-3 years out, not 3 months.

 

[Mag_seven]

What's needed are fewer but longer blocks that cover both weekday and weekends such that they get the work done all in one big hit. We don't need lots of small blocks that are simply shifted from weekends to weekdays.

 

[Iskra]

What's needed are fewer but longer blocks that cover both weekday and weekends such that they get the work done all in one big hit. We don't need lots of small blocks that are simply shifted from weekends to weekdays.

I agree, if done in say a two week period and advertised it would be more efficient due to less time wasted setting-up/dismantling possessions and commuters could synchronise their leave.

 

[Topological]

Fridays to Monday inclusive?

 

[JonathanH]

I agree, if done in say a two week period and advertised it would be more efficient due to less time wasted setting-up/dismantling possessions and commuters could synchronise their leave.

Funnily enough, last week saw a number of complete closures of lines for engineering work being half term for many areas.

It is more difficult to do such closures if they disrupt schoolchildren, both because of the need for coaches, and the need to get them to school.

Commuters don't always welcome being told to synchronise their leave with the railway carrying out engineering.

 

[Magdalia]

What's needed are fewer but longer blocks that cover both weekday and weekends such that they get the work done all in one big hit.

This has been happening for a very long time.

In my commuting career there was a 3 week closure of Hackney Downs-Walthamstow/Copper Mill in August 1983 and a 1 week closure of Royston-Shepreth Branch in August 1999.

 

[Horizon22]

Funnily enough, last week saw a number of complete closures of lines for engineering work being half term for many areas.

It is more difficult to do such closures if they disrupt schoolchildren, both because of the need for coaches, and the need to get them to school.

Commuters don't always welcome being told to synchronise their leave with the railway carrying out engineering.

Also it's not like every company will be happy suddenly having everyone on leave either! Okay not everyone will live in the same area or commute to work by rail, but certain places naturally have a geographic slant in terms of a higher % of people commuting to - for instance - a certain London terminus.

Otherwise though yes, we may need to consider using weekdays more often (maybe combined with a weekend) and few weekend closures and indeed this has already been happening recently. Given planning horizons for such things, this seems unlikely to happen for next 2 years - if it was indeed seen as beneficial.

 

[Bald Rick]

Given that weekend travel feels busier than weekdays,

Another reason is the change of work patterns from 2019. Since people have shifted from 5 day work to 3, this has made weekday travel quieter than weekend

So instead of a weekend closure (full Saturday and Sunday), could Network Rail move to a Monday and Tuesday or Thursday to Friday closure since maintenance works are normally planned at least three months in advance?

These are largely misconceptions.

Firstly, for the network as a whole, weekdays are all still much busier than weekends. Sundays have roughly half the passnegers as Saturdays, and Saturdays are about 80% of weekdays. Monday is the quietest weekday, but is still busier than Saturdays. Not everyone has shifted to a “3 day week”, there is much variation. In particular, one type of commuter is very much still on a 5 day week - school children.

Secondly, it varies widely by line, and by time of year.

Thirdly, the closures are planned 12-24 months in advance, and for bigger jobs up to 5 years. (For example the detailed plan for the rebuilding of London Bridge was confirmed in 2012). Given how travel patterns have changed, it is quite possible that something planned in 2022 might not be suitable for 2024, so care must be taken, along with a decent crystal ball.

Another significant point is bus availability. There‘s a reason most midweek blockades happen in school holidays, and that is because bus availability is good, as they are not required for schools traffic. Buses in the numbers required fir disrupting busy routes are not usually available on regular weekdays.

Finally, one has to consider resources for the work itself. There are limited resources for engineering trains, for example, with locos and drivers working on commercial freight Mon-Fri and then available Sat / Sun for engineering trains. The process for loading / unloading the engineering train wagons is resourced around trains arriving in depot Monday morning, being processed Mon / Tue, and being readied for next duties Weds / Thurs ready for departure Friday / Sat. Obviously this can be changed, but is more complex if there are multiple different activities happening at the same time (eg some wagons needing emptying at the same time as others need loading). This is one reason why midweek work is often that which needs few if any engineering trains - such as signal commissioning (eg Wokingham last week, ECML this week), major earthworks, and smaller S&C renewals (which need relatively few engineering trains for their level of activity).


Commercial Freight running is another reason mid weeks are more tricky.

Nevertheless more midweek work will happen, usually in school hol time, typically on a Monday (as well as the adjoining weekend) with longer blocks on the more lightly used routes.

 

[Starmill]

As Bald Rick says, Sundays are so much lower in demand than weekdays, it's actually quite difficult to justify not doing any work on a Sunday.

Where weekdays are used for blocks, notice how they so often run across a Sunday, or a whole weekend, prior to the weekdays.

 

[Horizon22]

As Bald Rick says, Sundays are so much lower in demand than weekdays, it's actually quite difficult to justify not doing any work on a Sunday.

Where weekdays are used for blocks, notice how they so often run across a Sunday, or a whole weekend, prior to the weekdays.

There is a little bit of "chicken and egg" though; is Sunday demand so much lower because there's also engineering works and the reliability of the railway is patchy for making a trip on that day? Or is it because it is just a low demand day.

I would lean towards the latter, but the other side must also have some impact.

 

[blueberry11]

the closures are planned 12-24 months on advance

To me, that feels too far ahead, especially for works like fixing rail, cutting trees, cleaning the tunnels, etc. Maybe weekend engineering work is much more than that. Obviously, not only do the workers need to be told about the planned works, but also to the people using the railways so that they can plan accordingly (and cannot receive delay repay if their journey took 30 min longer due to works/closures). It feels too much to play at least a year in advance for a relatively small project.

With the London Bridge and Reading station upgrades, given that work started in 2012 and 2009 respectively, did that meant that it took them five years between the start of the plan to the work starting and that it took over 10 years from planning to end?

I think motorway road closures are planned less than a month in advance because they can range from cutting roadside grass, litter picking, fixing potholes, resurfacing to removing (demolishing) a bridge.

at least I am still (technically) correct with 'at least three months' thing.

Plus I would justify a one off lateness for schoolchildren to planned closures as long as it does not fall in line with exams although it would be hard if they meant mock exams or real ones.

So would a Sunday to Tuesday closure work? If so, that would have to start from 2025.

In addition, when will the Waterloo and City line start to open on Sundays given that it always closes that day?

 

[Horizon22]

To me, that feels too far ahead, especially for works like fixing rail, cutting trees, cleaning the tunnels, etc.

It might "feel" too far, but it definitely isn't. There is a lot to prepare, ducks to get in a row and only so much resource availability.

And engineering works can be a lot more than just that.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a little bit of "chicken and egg" though; is Sunday demand so much lower because there's also engineering works and the reliability of the railway is patchy for making a trip on that day? Or is it because it is just a low demand day.

I would lean towards the latter, but the other side must also have some impact.

Its definitely the latter. See demand profiles on lines where there is rarely engineering work on Sundays. Or the road network. Or donestic air. Essentially, there is low demand before the middle of the day.

 

[Horizon22]

Its definitely the latter. See demand profiles on lines where there is rarely engineering work on Sundays. Or the road network. Or donestic air. Essentially, there is low demand before the middle of the day.

Oh I'm well aware before about 1000-1100 it is very quiet, but part of me wonders how much that is surpressed after decades of engineering works on Sundays and there being a cultural element to "oh you better check your journey back on Sunday". It must play at least some part - even if small and hard to quality.

But yes you are quite right that other modes such as roads are normally very quiet too.

 

[Bald Rick]

To me, that feels too far ahead, especially for works like fixing rail, cutting trees, cleaning the tunnels, etc.

There is a distinct difference between planning closures, planning the work within them, and planning the trainservice that operates around them. These are different activities, linked obviously, but managed by different teams (as they have different skillsets).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Feb 2024 ==

Oh I'm well aware before about 1000-1100 it is very quiet, but part of me wonders how much that is surpressed after decades of engineering works on Sundays and there being a cultural element to "oh you better check your journey back on Sunday". It must play at least some part - even if small and hard to quality.

But yes you are quite right that other modes such as roads are normally very quiet too.

People like their Sunday lie-ins. Or go to (local) church.

 

[The Planner]

To me, that feels too far ahead, especially for works like fixing rail, cutting trees, cleaning the tunnels, etc. Maybe weekend engineering work is much more than that. Obviously, not only do the workers need to be told about the planned works, but also to the people using the railways so that they can plan accordingly (and cannot receive delay repay if their journey took 30 min longer due to works/closures). It feels too much to play at least a year in advance for a relatively small project.

That would fall under cyclical maintenance and the vast majority of the time is planned in non disruptive blocks. You can't get delay repay for diverted trains unless they run late.

at least I am still (technically) correct with 'at least three months' thing.

That can only happen if people are adding work into already agreed possessions. The Confirmed Period Possession Plan (CPPP) is 26 weeks out so operators can bid for the short term timetable and NR can offer it back.

 

[greyman42]

There is a little bit of "chicken and egg" though; is Sunday demand so much lower because there's also engineering works and the reliability of the railway is patchy for making a trip on that day? Or is it because it is just a low demand day.

I would lean towards the latter, but the other side must also have some impact.

Demand will vary from TOC to TOC. Take the ECML for example, it is very busy on a Sunday with some services full and standing. Saturdays are also very busy with day trippers visiting York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

 

[Starmill]

Demand will vary from TOC to TOC. Take the ECML for example, it is very busy on a Sunday with some services full and standing. Saturdays are also very busy with day trippers visiting York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.

You get overcrowding because demand is more compressed into just a few hours, (especially 1200 - 1600) rather than because it's actually higher.

 

[Magdalia]

Oh I'm well aware before about 1000-1100 it is very quiet

A big factor here is Sunday trading laws. Very little is open before 1000 on Sundays.

In my experience the biggest Sunday morning travel problems have been on the day of the London Marathon when lots of people, both competitors and spectators, are travelling early.

 

[Horizon22]

A big factor here is Sunday trading laws. Very little is open before 1000 on Sundays.

In my experience the biggest Sunday morning travel problems have been on the day of the London Marathon when lots of people, both competitors and spectators, are travelling early.

I have found operators - usually Southeastern - tend to run special early morning Sunday trains on the date and have done for some time.

 

[Magdalia]

I have found operators - usually Southeastern - tend to run special early morning Sunday trains on the date and have done for some time.

The start is at Greenwich and SouthEastern to Greenwich is not the issue. People are arriving in London from all directions before they need to get out to Greenwich, and that's what I'm referring to.

 

[Horizon22]

The start is at Greenwich and SouthEastern to Greenwich is not the issue. People are arriving in London from all directions before they need to get out to Greenwich, and that's what I'm referring to.

I imagine people just stay in London overnight on Saturday.

 

[Jamesrob637]

You get overcrowding because demand is more compressed into just a few hours, (especially 1200 - 1600) rather than because it's actually higher.

People leaving it until the last moment to check out of hotels, which usually takes place at 11am or noon, going for something to eat in the "holiday" town or city, then a train home. So yeah, early to mid afternoon.

 

[greyman42]

Oh I'm well aware before about 1000-1100 it is very quiet,

Even the early trains on LNER are busy.