Could nationwide TOC road services work?

[whoosh]

Whilst there are a couple of train drivers I work with who have a bus driving licence, the rest of us don't! And there are train drivers without even a car license!

I seem to recall (probably in the late 1990s) that there were some sort of services like those suggested by the OP in the Netherlands though, with train drivers driving buses sometimes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst there are a couple of train drivers I work with who have a bus driving licence, the rest of us don't! And there are train drivers without even a car license!

I seem to recall (probably in the late 1990s) that there were some sort of services like those suggested by the OP in the Netherlands though, with train drivers driving buses sometimes.

Driving I get as it's very different, but one thing that's always surprised me is that it isn't part of a guard's role to conduct (in the sense of providing passenger assistance and checking tickets on boarding) rail replacement bus services on the routes they normally work.

 

[nw1]

I don't agree that existing lines should be closed and replaced with road transport.

However I will agree with others that *new* bus links to enhance the rail network are a good idea.

Such bus links should be integrated with the rail ticketing system, with through ticketing available, and should use rail stations as starting/terminating points as well as being fast, calling only "where there might be a station". Such a route should take the direct A-road route and call only at principal villages.

A good criterion to use could be that the route has to serve at least one place designated a town, in addition to the place with the railway station. Essentially the aim would be to ensure every town has either a rail service or a "rail bus" service. Examples in my area could, perhaps, include:

Wareham Station-Wareham Town-Corfe Castle-Swanage
Haslemere-Midhurst-Chichester along the A286, calling at principal villages
Bournemouth-Wimborne-Blandford
Salisbury-Ringwood-Bournemouth

In many of these cases the service could be provided by simply adding some faster, limited-stop, rail-specialised journeys along existing bus routes. The operator wouldn't really matter, as long as integration was provided for the designated "rail bus" journeys - it would probably make sense for the established local operator to run the service, with funding provided by government - so for example Stagecoach could do Haslemere-Chichester and Go-Ahead the other three.

 

[PTR 444]

I don't agree that existing lines should be closed and replaced with road transport.

However I will agree with others that *new* bus links to enhance the rail network are a good idea.

Such bus links should be integrated with the rail ticketing system, with through ticketing available, and should use rail stations as starting/terminating points as well as being fast, calling only "where there might be a station". Such a route should take the direct A-road route and call only at principal villages.

A good criterion to use could be that the route has to serve at least one place designated a town, in addition to the place with the railway station. Essentially the aim would be to ensure every town has either a rail service or a "rail bus" service. Examples in my area could, perhaps, include:

Wareham Station-Wareham Town-Corfe Castle-Swanage
Haslemere-Midhurst-Chichester along the A286, calling at principal villages
Bournemouth-Wimborne-Blandford
Salisbury-Ringwood-Bournemouth

Such routes have existing buses, but they aren't integrated and aren't necessarily fast.

This is a great idea in principle, although I’m not sure if the demand could support both a commercially operated local and a state supported rail-connecting express along the same route. In the latter case, you’d probably need to halve the frequency of the existing X3 Bournemouth - Salisbury route to make an express service along the same route viable. And that’s before people ask whether Morebus tickets will be valid on the ‘rail-bus’.

The Bournemouth - Blandford bus I would extend to Gillingham to connect with the train to Exeter. North of Blandford has a far lower chance of seeing a commercial bus succeed, so I can’t see an issue if a ‘rail-bus’ was the only public transport option for the intermediate villages.

 

[nw1]

This is a great idea in principle, although I’m not sure if the demand could support both a commercially operated local and a state supported rail-connecting express along the same route. In the latter case, you’d probably need to halve the frequency of the existing X3 Bournemouth - Salisbury route to make an express service along the same route viable. And that’s before people ask whether Morebus tickets will be valid on the ‘rail-bus’.

The integration is the key thing and perhaps existing routes could be used with only minor adjustments, as long as they are direct, and any deviations from A-roads are replaced with separate, local, bus services.

So maybe adjusting/retiming the X3 could work so it starts from Salisbury Station, serves Bournemouth station (if it doesn't already) and has good connections at the Salisbury end with Bristol services (Bournemouth already has frequent trains so maybe not so critical here).

Likewise with Haslemere-Chichester, splitting the 70 at Haslemere and the 60 at Chichester and running the service across Midhurst and directly along the A286 could work, without a need for a separate service.

With Swanage I think splitting the existing bus service at Wareham (so one Poole-Wareham bus and another Wareham-Swanage bus) would have to be done, as the A351 north of there is heavily prone to delays so a Wareham-Swanage 'shuttle' would arguably make sense.

 

[PTR 444]

The integration is the key thing and perhaps existing routes could be used with only minor adjustments, as long as they are direct, and any deviations from A-roads are replaced with separate, local, bus services.

So maybe adjusting/retiming the X3 could work so it starts from Salisbury Station, serves Bournemouth station (if it doesn't already) and has good connections at the Salisbury end with Bristol services (Bournemouth already has frequent trains so maybe not so critical here).

Likewise with Haslemere-Chichester, splitting the 70 at Haslemere and the 60 at Chichester and running the service across Midhurst and directly along the A286 could work, without a need for a separate service.

With Swanage I think splitting the existing bus service at Wareham (so one Poole-Wareham bus and another Wareham-Swanage bus) would have to be done, as the A351 north of there is heavily prone to delays.

This is all good in principle, but you also need to consider the local journeys many people make on these existing bus routes. Splitting Poole - Swanage at Wareham would inconvenience Purbeck residents who would prefer a direct journey rather than making a change to the train even if it might be quicker. I agree though that the X3 should be extended to Salisbury rail station and diverted via Wessex Way and Bournemouth station (currently it runs via Boscombe which adds 20 minutes to the journey).

 

[nw1]

This is all good in principle, but you also need to consider the local journeys many people make on these existing bus routes. Splitting Poole - Swanage at Wareham would inconvenience Purbeck residents who would prefer a direct journey rather than making a change to the train even if it might be quicker. I agree though that the X3 should be extended to Salisbury rail station and diverted via Wessex Way and Bournemouth station (currently it runs via Boscombe which adds 20 minutes to the journey).

True. I think the main thing is seeing some effort to produce a "rail bus" network, taking into account these factors. Perhaps in the Swanage example you could offer a compromise in which 2 buses per hour Wareham-Swanage are provided, one starting Wareham station and designed for rail interchange, the other originating from Poole. The resulting network thus may not be perfect, but at least it would offer that integration. The issue is that at the moment, the government (and UK governments in general) seem to have little interest in doing so.

With the £2 single bus fares at the moment, combined rail/bus journeys are a good deal more attractive than normal. However, as well as the lack of good connections in places they also end up being disproportionately expensive when normal bus fares apply. Southampton to Purbeck is a very good example locally; can be done with train and bus but in normal times is distinctly expensive.

I'd certainly take out the Boscombe diversion on the X3 given the route's role in providing the only direct public transport connection between two substantial settlements (Salisbury and Bournemouth) and the only regular public transport to two towns (Ringwood and Fordingbridge). I have to admit I wasn't aware of this; I did do the X3 perhaps 10 years ago and am fairly certain it just sailed straight down the A338. Anyone heading for Boscombe can then interchange onto presumably extremely frequent buses from Bournemouth station.

 

[PTR 444]

True. I think the main thing is seeing some effort to produce a "rail bus" network, taking into account these factors. Perhaps in the Swanage example you could offer a compromise in which 2 buses per hour Wareham-Swanage are provided, one starting Wareham station and designed for rail interchange, the other originating from Poole. The resulting network thus may not be perfect, but at least it would offer that integration. The issue is that at the moment, the government (and UK governments in general) seem to have little interest in doing so.

This is a good idea. Seeing as there are 2tph to Wareham from each direction, the existing route 40 bus could be retimed to better connect with 1tph in each direction, with an additional Wareham - Swanage short working on the 40 connecting with the trains in the other half hour.

With the £2 single bus fares at the moment, combined rail/bus journeys are a good deal more attractive than normal. However, as well as the lack of good connections in places they also end up being disproportionately expensive when normal bus fares apply. Southampton to Purbeck is a very good example locally; can be done with train and bus but in normal times is distinctly expensive.

I think this depends on the market travelling. Locals might be annoyed that the 1 mile bus trip from the station to home costs almost half as much as their 50 mile rail journey from work, although tourists and leisure travellers would probably accept a separate £8 bus fare to somewhere like Keswick or Bakewell if it’s something they’ll only do once in a blue moon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2023 ==

I'd certainly take out the Boscombe diversion on the X3 given the route's role in providing the only direct public transport connection between two substantial settlements (Salisbury and Bournemouth) and the only regular public transport to two towns (Ringwood and Fordingbridge). I have to admit I wasn't aware of this; I did do the X3 perhaps 10 years ago and am fairly certain it just sailed straight down the A338. Anyone heading for Boscombe can then interchange onto presumably extremely frequent buses from Bournemouth station.

Agreed. The Bournemouth - Boscombe - RB Hospital leg of the X3 should become a new or extended local service while the X3 is sped up via the A338. There is currently the X6 which goes fast between Bournemouth and Ringwood, but this has recently been reduced to a 2-hourly frequency so isn’t much use to those who could otherwise use the X3.

 

[Meerkat]

The big problems are of course financial.
you are adding subsidised buses to subsidised trains and moving responsibility from local councils to national government.
If the rail express bus then cannibalises other services it probabl costs the council money too.
No doubt the pensioners will demand its free as it’s a bus, further damaging the finances.

 

[Philip]

Obviously ideally no railways will be closed or train services replaced with bus services, but as the railway finances are in such a mess this seemed like an idea to cut costs in running express bus services along the approximate route of lines which are considered 'secondary' (ie. slow, many stops, poor quality track etc); that's why I mentioned the Atherton line, particularly because the fast bus way could be used between Walkden and Leigh, along the East Lancs.

 

[nw1]

The big problems are of course financial.
you are adding subsidised buses to subsidised trains and moving responsibility from local councils to national government.
If the rail express bus then cannibalises other services it probabl costs the council money too.
No doubt the pensioners will demand its free as it’s a bus, further damaging the finances.

How do other countries manage in that case? (assuming they do)

If they do, it suggests to me that political will is the problem, unless said countries are much richer than the UK.

 

[Bartsimho]

The big problems are of course financial.
you are adding subsidised buses to subsidised trains and moving responsibility from local councils to national government.
If the rail express bus then cannibalises other services it probabl costs the council money too.
No doubt the pensioners will demand its free as it’s a bus, further damaging the finances.

I mean it would be the best if it was all in local transport authorities (they controlled the trains and the busses ala TfL) as the integration and providing good service come hand in hand although that would probably need more local government than there currently is (Basically every region has a mayor with some power).

A route I could think of would be Mansfield, Sutton-In-Ashfield, Alfreton, Ripley, Derby as while this is a bridge more than an extension it could be timed with the Nottingham bound Robin Hood line service for Mansfield to Derby and the Worksop bound service in the opposite direction. There are so many trains at Derby that choosing one to connect with is fruitless so it can just arrive when it arrives. (Although I would suggest an every 30 minute frequency) Also Mansfield Bus Station is connected to the Rail station so you can park it there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2023 ==

How do other countries manage in that case? (assuming they do)

If they do, it suggests to me that political will is the problem, unless said countries are much richer than the UK.

Devolved administration to regions I think and then they handle all local transport with national connections handled by central government

 

[nw1]

I think this depends on the market travelling. Locals might be annoyed that the 1 mile bus trip from the station to home costs almost half as much as their 50 mile rail journey from work, although tourists and leisure travellers would probably accept a separate £8 bus fare to somewhere like Keswick or Bakewell if it’s something they’ll only do once in a blue moon.

There is also the in-between "regional day-trip" market, such as say Southampton to Purbeck. Such journeys are particularly sensitive to price (IMO) and could potentially be done three or four times per summer season - but only if the bus leg wasn't too expensive.

 

[Bartsimho]

There is also the in-between "regional day-trip" market, such as say Southampton to Purbeck. Such journeys are particularly sensitive to price (IMO) and could potentially be done three or four times per summer season - but only if the bus leg wasn't too expensive.

Yeah having bus extensions in season for attractions at reasonable prices with through ticketing could be excellent. I think even £4 extra could be classed as affordable as there is no parking concerns and less stress. Although if you can give group discounts then that would be even better.

Another route that could work would be Stoke, Leek, Ashbourne, Derby with timed connections at Stoke due to it's less frequent service. The idea being it's for Leek and Ashbourne to connect to the WCML and MML. While this might undercut the Crewe to Newark route a bit due to less rail heading at Uttoxeter it probably increases passengers more than it would decrease.

 

[RT4038]

The big problems are of course financial.
you are adding subsidised buses to subsidised trains and moving responsibility from local councils to national government.
If the rail express bus then cannibalises other services it probabl costs the council money too.
No doubt the pensioners will demand its free as it’s a bus, further damaging the finances.

Yes, it is all about financials/funding. National Government does not want to take on responsibility for the provision of local bus operation. (I expect they would really like to divest themselves of local rail operation and funding too!)

If the rail express bus replaces (by canabalisation and its consequences, or by design) local bus services, then the concessionary fare holders would have a point (i.e. one of the issues that needs to be worked through)

How do other countries manage in that case? (assuming they do)

If they do, it suggests to me that political will is the problem, unless said countries are much richer than the UK.

By having completely different transport governance to us. We could have that if there was the political will, but it is not on the agenda of any political party, nor is it on the horizon of popular opinion either. There are not many countries that do achieve it though.

I mean it would be the best if it was all in local transport authorities (they controlled the trains and the busses ala TfL) as the integration and providing good service come hand in hand although that would probably need more local government than there currently is (Basically every region has a mayor with some power).



Devolved administration to regions I think and then they handle all local transport with national connections handled by central government

This could be a way forward - local authorities could reallocate the huge subsidy sums for local railway lines to improve the bus network as a whole, including the rail replacement services. This may go someway to solving the funding gap and local transport integration, but may not get integration with long distance services.

Yeah having bus extensions in season for attractions at reasonable prices

but only if the bus leg wasn't too expensive.

But all this has to be funded.......

 

[nw1]

By having completely different transport governance to us. We could have that if there was the political will, but it is not on the agenda of any political party, nor is it on the horizon of popular opinion either.

So what is it about UK (actually, probably English rather than Welsh/Scottish/NI) culture that is different to other countries/regions with a better public transport culture? Why do people in parts of the UK object to, presumably, taxation being used to fund such things, when some other parts of the western world don't have such a problem?

The countries/regions that seem to be able to do it properly include the stretch of the continent from Belgium down to Austria, plus, judging by TT-ONR-NRN's trip reports, much of the more populated parts of Australia (NSW round Sydney, Victoria round Melbourne) too. These countries/regions presumably have the majority of people using their own cars to get about, like us, but also presumably don't seem to object so much to the funding of integrated public transport.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

I'd be in favour of the system in Northern Ireland and Switzerland where trains, buses and coaches all have a co-ordinated timetable and inter-available fares.

On a recent visit to Northern Ireland I was surprised at how little integration there was between the bus and rail operations. At Great Victoria Street bus rail interchange the bus staff knew very little about rail fares / times and vice versa.

The iLink cards are useful for mode hopping but having each card tied to a specific set of zones meant I ended up with four during my visit. I had naively assumed that you buy one card and top it up each day with whichever combination of zones is required. It was also surprisingly difficult to find out which zone each place was in.

 

[Tayway]

On a recent visit to Northern Ireland I was surprised at how little integration there was between the bus and rail operations. At Great Victoria Street bus rail interchange the bus staff knew very little about rail fares / times and vice versa.

The iLink cards are useful for mode hopping but having each card tied to a specific set of zones meant I ended up with four during my visit. I had naively assumed that you buy one card and top it up each day with whichever combination of zones is required. It was also surprisingly difficult to find out which zone each place was in.

Interesting – I hasn't picked up on that flaw of the ticketing, definitely an oversight. I suspect Translink's website rather overstates the connectivity aspect!

 

[RT4038]

So what is it about UK (actually, probably English rather than Welsh/Scottish/NI) culture that is different to other countries/regions with a better public transport culture? Why do people in parts of the UK object to, presumably, taxation being used to fund such things, when some other parts of the western world don't have such a problem?

The countries/regions that seem to be able to do it properly include the stretch of the continent from Belgium down to Austria, plus, judging by TT-ONR-NRN's trip reports, much of the more populated parts of Australia (NSW round Sydney, Victoria round Melbourne) too. These countries/regions presumably have the majority of people using their own cars to get about, like us, but also presumably don't seem to object so much to the funding of integrated public transport.

Well that is a controversial question for this forum! Trying not to stir up too much of a hornets nest, I guess it is because of the different influences that UK culture has been subjected to over the centuries, compared to those other countries. From a distance we all appear similar, but there are just so many subtle differences of thought, process and outlook. I am not so sure that the Welsh/Scottish/NI outlook is that much different to England - their provision and integration is similarly pretty woeful compared to your comparator countries, and they have different funding arrangements. Even adjacent countries with greater shared history than us (France/Germany) pour monies into public transport but have completely different integration outcomes.

I suspect the way our modern transport grew up is a further influence - our railways were private enterprises long after all your comparator countries had been nationalised (or were always state owned), and the bus industry was allowed to (generally privately owned) flourish much more freely (rather than being railway owned and/or highly regulated subservient to the railways). Apart from a very few examples, they have never been integrated.

There is no one explanation, just a combination of influences and history that make up the current situation, and you can take your pick as to which are the important or otherwise.

The position today is that there is a huge swathe of 'middle' England with multiple cars who have little interest in public transport (none in buses apart from to take their kids to school, and themselves from airport terminal to a plane on the apron, and only trains to London) and, outside of the major cities, an aspiration of anyone not in 'middle' England to move up there ('middle' being an economic/cultural state rather than geographical). Which explains the fact that there is little or no political or grass roots impetus to invest/support public transport. Plus, of course, plenty of vested interests not to rock the status quo!

 

[miklcct]

Anyone heading for Boscombe can then interchange onto presumably extremely frequent buses from Bournemouth station.

This doesn't work. The only bus from Bournemouth station to Boscombe is the 22 which is a slow infrequent all stops service. X3 is the only fast service between the hospital and Boscombe.

An idea which MAY work is to bin off the Bournemouth - Ringwood section of the X6 (with guaranteed transfer with the X3 at Ringwood), and use the resource to run a fast hospital - Boscombe shuttle every 15 minutes to connect to the X-routes.

 

[HST43257]

Just looked back on this thread and there’s some very interesting ones

I’d be very interested in the Stagecoach/Citylink idea in Scotland. I feel there’s plenty of opportunity there to do something good in customer focus, bus perhaps it’s better as competition

 

[nw1]

This doesn't work. The only bus from Bournemouth station to Boscombe is the 22 which is a slow infrequent all stops service. X3 is the only fast service between the hospital and Boscombe.

Surprised. Could other Bournemouth-Boscombe buses divert via the station? Without knowing the network very well, I'd have guessed at one bus every 5 mins or so (using Portswood in Southampton as a comparison) but evidently not.

 

[PTR 444]

This doesn't work. The only bus from Bournemouth station to Boscombe is the 22 which is a slow infrequent all stops service. X3 is the only fast service between the hospital and Boscombe.

An idea which MAY work is to bin off the Bournemouth - Ringwood section of the X6 (with guaranteed transfer with the X3 at Ringwood), and use the resource to run a fast hospital - Boscombe shuttle every 15 minutes to connect to the X-routes.

Surprised. Could other Bournemouth-Boscombe buses divert via the station? Without knowing the network very well, I'd have guessed at one bus every 5 mins or so (using Portswood in Southampton as a comparison) but evidently not.

There is also the Transpora 2 route running every 20 minutes, although ideally the 22 should really be every 15 minutes between Bournemouth and the hospital, as it used to be before the collapse of Yellow Buses.