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Could more money be given to improve the XC network?

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squizzler

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paulmch

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As part of the failed rescue package the treasury was going to waive the Air Passenger Duty. How about putting the money that would have been foregone under this arrangement into a new deal for CrossCountry (most similar to Flybe in their coverage) instead? How much difference could that make?

CrossCountry carried about 40 million passengers last year which is 5 times more than Flybe did - £100 million pounds to improve the XC network seems like much better value for money! It wouldn't exactly be transformative for the whole franchise but if it was spent in the right way it could really help places like Exeter and Southampton that were quite dependent on Flybe for their regional connectivity.
 

JamesT

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As part of the failed rescue package [for Flybe] the treasury was going to waive the Air Passenger Duty.

How about putting the money that would have been foregone under this arrangement into a new deal for CrossCountry (most similar to Flybe in their coverage) instead?

How much difference could that make?

N.B. Don't blame me for spawning a new XC speculation thread! This post was hoisted out of an ongoing flybe discussion. I guess the intention is that of discussing how to give special dispensation to a franchise that links a number of economically depressed peripheral regions and on whose longer routes the plane was until today the most viable alternative. Not to discuss specific rolling stock allocations!

The announcement at the time was they were going to consult on reducing APD. So I don't believe there was ever a pot of money set aside that could be used.
The Budget is next week, so that would be the most logical time for any announcements.
 

tbtc

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Sounds nice but I guess the question is *what* you'd spend the money on.

You could insist on a token number of cheap "Exeter to Glasgow" tickets each day (sold twelve weeks in advance etc etc), as a headline grabbing way of trying to distract from the fact that people in Devon face a much longer and much more expensive long distance journeys - but there's very little spare capacity on XC services, so I can't see any fare reductions happening.

You could invest in additional trains, but what? HSTs clearly struggle to match Voyager timings, and there's no space in the timetable to add an extra few minutes here and there (whilst I'd be happy with XC becoming a 100mph railway, if it meant it was much easier to procure additional stock, you'd need to rip up the whole national timetable to accommodate this).

The Avanti Voyagers and the EMR Meridians are spoken for (for the next couple of years), so that'd be hard to get.

802s (or equivalent)? Sounds good, but it'd be a drop in the ocean for XC, unless you rejig the timetables (e.g. the northbound Bournemouth - Manchester service becomes a southbound Manchester - Exeter service, so you'd need to consider spreading any new trains very thinly amongst the network (and then that'd mean training various depots/staff on maintenance/ knowledge). Say the answer is a fleet of seven/eight coach "802"s to run all Edinburgh - Plymouth services (inc Aberdeen/ Glasgow/ Penzance etc) - that'd be knocking on thirty trains... so hundreds of millions of pounds - whilst I'd love to see it, I can't see the Government stumping up those kind of sums - they probably just want some kind of sticking plaster to give some reassuring publicity to affected fliers and give the impression that they are "listening" to the concerns of people unable to take the budget flights any more.

The only bit of XC it'd be "easy" to add additional capacity to would be the ex-Central Trains routes (since most 100mph DMUs could be cascaded there), but these are of no relevance to Flybe passengers.
 

squizzler

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Christian Wolmar suggests a "Regional Transport Fund" in his latest Guardian article, and specifically cites XC as the operation that has most in common with Flybe:
CrossCountry, the rail franchise that runs many of the services between towns and cities also connected by Flybe, has long been a Cinderella service with poor punctuality and massive overcrowding on several major routes. Improving these CrossCountry routes should be a priority for the government, which is currently reviewing the structure of the railways in its long overdue Williams review.
 

HSTEd

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How about redoing the diagrams to concentrate all available 221s on the South-West services and then try to clear the South Devon line for tilt?
 

jayah

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Moderator note: Split from http://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-asked-to-accept-flybe-passengers.201554/#post-4470600


part of the failed rescue package the treasury was going to waive the Air Passenger Duty.

How about putting the money that would have been foregone under this arrangement into a new deal for CrossCountry (most similar to Flybe in their coverage) instead?

How much difference could that make?
The suggested £100m loan would get you about 40 extra vehicles, not enough for what is needed which is 1x AC motor car for each of the Voyagers. More capacity and no more long distance running under wires.
 

markymark2000

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Yes, those. If enough money was available I'd go for a full fleet replacement, but it would also work to procure enough to allow all 4-car Voyagers to be doubled up, as those are the main problem.
XC needs Tri mode really. AC, DC and Diesel so then it can make use of the 60 miles of DC track that it runs on (Basingstoke to Bournemouth)
 

geoffk

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Concentrate all XC services south of York, so there are spare Voyagers to double up to 8, 9 or 10 cars on the core network. Plenty of alternatives north of York. This was suggested on another thread.
 

Glenn1969

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The bigger airlines objected to the mere suggestion of government help for Flybe. So I don't think the money was ever going to appear in any case
 

markymark2000

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How much would it cost roughly for all of the 220s to be upgraded to 5 cars?
That would surely be a wise investment given that most of XCs services run as single sets and where they run as double sets, I would presume most stations which XC serve which take 8 cars could take 10 cars.

I think some new trains might be worth ordering but I would say it should be local diesels to try and sort the Leicesters and Stansteds rather than longer distance Voyagers (many trips of course would benefit from the extra carriage on 220s).
 

JonathanH

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How much would it cost roughly for all of the 220s to be upgraded to 5 cars?

Whatever the cost is, it isn't going to happen as the money would be better invested doing something else. Besides, the WC 221s and EMR 222s are on the horizon in a shorter timeframe than trying to build extra 220 carriages.

I would presume most stations which XC serve which take 8 cars could take 10 cars

Some platforms that XC serve can't take 8 cars let alone 10.
 

HSTEd

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How much would it cost roughly for all of the 220s to be upgraded to 5 cars?
The cheapest way to get the 220s to five-cars is to scrap several sets worth of driving cars and redistribute the non driving vehicles - then buy some IEPs to supplement the remaining fleet.

There is no way to get new carriages at this point for the 220s.
 
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