Could mainline heritage operators commission new rolling stock?

[Alanko]

Moderator note: split from

Central locking for heritage trains

Surprised I haven't seen anything about this on here. Firstly apologise for the Daily Mail link. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12138469/Iconic-Flying-Scotsman-forced-mainstream-rail-lines-time-100-years.html The ORR argued that centrally-controlled locking systems prevent...

www.railforums.co.uk

Are any operators considering commissioning new carriages? There are various projects out there returning various steam and diesel locos from extinction, at vast expense.

Is nobody considering building a rake of something that looks like a Maunsell, Gresley or Thompson design but running on modern bogies and aligned to modern safety regs.

 

[JonathanH]

Are any operators considering commissioning new carriages?

No operators could remotely afford commissioning new carriages.

Rebuilds of old ones is a labour of love for most railways given what you see in the carriage workshops, but at least they don't have to be built from scratch.

 

[MarkyT]

Are any operators considering commissioning new carriages? There are various projects out there returning various steam and diesel locos from extinction, at vast expense. Is nobody considering building a rake of something that looks like a Maunsell, Gresley or Thompson design but running on modern bogies and aligned to modern safety regs.

The charter operators have been including at least a few Mk2s in some rakes for a while now. There are also some rakes that are wholly or majority Mk2s today, and Mk3s are making appearances too. Trailers from XC and GWR HSTs being withdrawn might plausibly become candidates for mainline heritage work, requiring adaptation for loco haulage clearly, but already equipped with modern doors and toilet facilities.

 

[JonathanH]

Trailers from XC and GWR HSTs being withdrawn might plausibly become candidates for mainline heritage work, requiring adaptation for loco haulage clearly, but already equipped with modern doors and toilet facilities.

I imagine that the ETS issue could be circumvented by having a generator capable of providing the HST style supply. Indeed, the relevant generator could be made from redundant parts from a power car.

Buffers are perhaps harder to install, and some way of coupling the formation to normal locomotives.

The big plus from a safety point of view would of course be that the carriages would be sealed, and have automatic doors.

 

[MarkyT]

I imagine that the ETS issue could be circumvented by having a generator capable of providing the HST style supply. Indeed, the relevant generator could be made from redundant parts from a power car.

That's the sort of solution I was also thinking of. Steam haulage would require a separate ETS supply anyway for such vehicles. Modern diesel generator equipment would probably be more reliable and smaller/lighter if attempting to accommodate in a standard trailer.

Buffers are perhaps harder to install, and some way of coupling the formation to normal locomotives.

I was thinking sets of (say) four semi-permanently coupled cars, retaining existing intermediate couplings apart from the outer ends which would need buffers and conventional couplers. The HST trailers have a buffer beam just without the buffers of the loco-hauled variant attached, so it should be possible to add them.

 

[12LDA28C]

The big plus from a safety point of view would of course be that the carriages would be sealed, and have automatic doors.

Which of course would be a big minus for those on board who wanted to hear and smell the steam loco working the train. As well as the aesthetic incongruity of a steam loco hauling Mark 3 stock.

 

[Alanko]

No operators could remotely afford commissioning new carriages.

If the money is there to build various Gresley locomotives, whatever the funding source or combination of sources, then couldn't it be used to build a rake of carriages?

 

[zwk500]

If the money is there to build various Gresley locomotives, whatever the funding source or combination of sources, then couldn't it be used to build a rake of carriages?

Because the funding is largely given by private donations expressly for the purpose of building a loco, and (in general) you can't use the money given for a specific purpose for something else. People are generally not as keen to donate to a rather vague cause, or specifically to carriages.

 

[43096]

I imagine that the ETS issue could be circumvented by having a generator capable of providing the HST style supply. Indeed, the relevant generator could be made from redundant parts from a power car.

Why would you use parts from a power car? Just using a gen set would do the job.

 

[MarkyT]

The A1 steam trust (Tornado, Prince of Wales) announced some years ago they intended to acquire and operate their own excursion train, formed of ex-Anglia loco-hauled Mk3 vehicles. I don't know where they are with that project, but they proposed replacement windows with an opening toplight feature, based on a design used previously by one of the luxury tour operators.

 

[JonathanH]

Why would you use parts from a power car? Just using a gen set would do the job.

Sorry, excuse my naivity on this. I was thinking that recycled parts may work out cheaper than something newly made.

Either way, the ETS required by HST carriages isn't an obstacle if a generator can be used, rather than a locomotive, and the carriages aren't mixed.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The A1 steam trust (Tornado, Prince of Wales) announced some years ago they intended to acquire and operate their own excursion train, formed of ex-Anglia loco-hauled Mk3 vehicles. I don't know where they are with that project, but they proposed replacement windows with an opening toplight feature, based on a design used previously by one of the luxury tour operators.

Aren't there Mk3 based multiple units with opening toplights in the windows? If so, and the window units are the same size as standard Mk3 windows, then presumably either second hand windows (with toplights) could be obtained as the MUs go for scrap, or it would be fairly straightforward to manufacture and retrofit anew.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't there Mk3 based multiple units with opening toplights in the windows? If so, and the window units are the same size as standard Mk3 windows, then presumably either second hand windows (with toplights) could be obtained as the MUs go for scrap, or it would be fairly straightforward to manufacture and retrofit anew.

They're not the same size, the window is shallower on the Mk3 than on the EMUs. The only EMUs with shallow windows were some 317s, and these had separate vents above.

However, unless there would be structural implications, one would have thought it possible to fit a newly fabricated opening window frame (using hopper openings so leaning out would not be possible) to a Mk3, I'm fairly sure the Irish ones were so fitted. It is definitely possible on a Mk2; some of Virgin Trains' erstwhile fleet was so fitted.

I would agree that opening windows are essential to the enjoyment of steam haulage.

 

[Bill57p9]

442s could have offered a solution: ready made rakes of 5, retention tanks, CDL, guard accommodation. Even cabs should an operator wish to fit different MU gear for push-pull operation.
Recently refurbished too.

(Having lit the touch paper I shall now retire to a safe distance)