Could Lincolnshire be better connected to the railway network?

[backontrack]

The only railway station in Lincolnshire with a better-than occasional InterCity service is Grantham (Lincoln's is set to improve by the sounds of things, but only to London). Besides the routes from other towns into Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham or Leicester, only Grantham has direct services to large centres of population (Liverpool, Norwich, York, Leeds, Hull, occasionally Newcastle and Edinburgh). Is this a problem?

Maybe it's time to look at things settlement-by-settlement.

GRIMSBY & CLEETHORPES: Population. 130,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Manchester.
LINCOLN: Pop. 100,000. Regular services to Sheffield, Newark (for ECML), Nottingham and Leicester. Occasional services to Doncaster, Peterborough and London.
SCUNTHORPE: Pop. 80,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Manchester.
GRANTHAM: Pop. 42,000. Regular services to London, Leeds, York, Nottingham, Norwich, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool. Occasional services to Darlington (Teesside), Newcastle and Edinburgh.
BOSTON: Pop. 41,000. Hourly service to Nottingham (Grantham for ECML).
SPALDING: Pop. 32,000. Hourly-ish service to Peterborough.
SKEGNESS: Pop. 25,000. Hourly service to Nottingham (Grantham for ECML).
GAINSBOROUGH: Pop. 21,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Retford (for ECML).
STAMFORD: Pop. 20,000. Hourly services to Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough and Cambridge.
SLEAFORD: Pop. 17,000. Hourly services to Nottingham and Peterborough.

All these times are for off-peak services during midweek.

The next town on the list, Louth, has no train service. North Hykeham is served, but by a station some distance away from the town in a sort of hinterland of what Wikipedia terms as 'urban sprawl'. There are no stations at Bourne, Market Deeping or Mablethorpe. From Barton-upon-Humber, you can reach Grimsby and Cleethorpes. No such luck at Immingham. Holbeach and Horncastle are both isolated in the Fens and Wolds respectively with not even a sniff of a Class 153 diesel unit to be had. Brigg may as well be on another planet, one where trains do exist but only on Saturdays...

Should something be done?

 

[DarloRich]

Should something be done?

No. small towns in a rural county with little going for it beyond Lincoln.

 

[backontrack]

There are 77,000 people in Chester. Almost half of the population of Grimsby and Cleethorpes combined. From Chester, you have hourly trains to London alongside services to North Wales, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Manchester, Crewe, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Grimsby and Cleethorpes have one train per hour to the outside world.

 

[urbophile]

Most of those places though are the lucky beneficiaries of being situated on main lines that serve other and usually more important places. Compare Runcorn and Skelmersdale; both new towns a similar distance from the same major city. The former just happens to be on the WCML; the latter, on a long-closed branch line.

 

[fowler9]

It is all just a quirk of geography. Scunthorpe can't compare itself with Runcorn. It isn't right next to Liverpool and Manchester or even Warrington.

 

[roversfan2001]

If a decent sized settlement is situated on a mainline it is far more likely to get a service to a major town or city. Due to a matter of railway geography Lincolnshire doesn't possess much in the way of mainlines, and therefore suffers as it isn't viable to build lines to serve small rural towns.

 

[Ianno87]

Most of those places though are the lucky beneficiaries of being situated on main lines that serve other and usually more important places. Compare Runcorn and Skelmersdale; both new towns a similar distance from the same major city. The former just happens to be on the WCML; the latter, on a long-closed branch line.

The examples listed act as railheads for much larger areas of population, not just the 'small' towns and cities themselves.

Chester for North East Wales and the Wirral
Lancaster for Morecambe and the Southern Lakes
Carlisle for the Northern Lakes and Scottish Borders

Peterborough, Grantham, Newark and Doncaster provide the equivalent function for Lincolnshire to varying extents.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Here's some background.

There are 77,000 people in Chester. Almost half of the population of Grimsby and Cleethorpes combined. From Chester, you have hourly trains to London alongside services to North Wales, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Manchester, Crewe, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Grimsby and Cleethorpes have one train per hour to the outside world.

In Carlisle, there are around 72,000 people - once again, beaten hollow by the combined populace of North East Lincolnshire. And there are also trains to London, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Lancaster has around 46,000 inhabitants. Which is a total very close to Boston's population. Lancaster's trains run to London, Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow - at top frequencies - with a few to Leeds and Barrow to boot.

Perhaps Scunthorpe should compare itself to Runcorn, which has a population of around 61,000 and frequent fast trains to London, Liverpool, Birmingham and Wolverhampton as well as services to Manchester from Runcorn East. Or Burton-upon-Trent, whose doughty denizens, 72,000-strong in number, can reach Edinburgh, Newcastle, Darlington, York, Leeds, Doncaster, Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby Birmingham, Cardiff and Bristol with a minimum of physical exertion (unless you count within that having to use a Voyager) - as well as less frequent services to Plymouth and Southampton.

That is all down to geography, history and circumstance.You cannot compare towns miles apart with nothing in common other than their population.

 

[dvboy]

The next town on the list, Louth, has no train service. North Hykeham is served, but by a station some distance away from the town...

How do you propose serving Louth?

North Hykeham is effectively a suburb of Lincoln and served adequately by buses to the city. Hykeham station is a nice-to-have and its only purpose really is of saving car drivers from going into Lincoln if they want to go south by train, but it's hardly that far to walk from North Hykeham if you really wanted to, 15 mins from Asda.

 

[Class 170101]

For some of the towns listed above Lincoln would be a main centre. It should also be noted that has a limited service to Peterborough rather than an hourly one. (Only between about 08:30 and 16:00ish)

 

[Starmill]

For such a relatively large place the service to Lincoln is naff. However, the past 6 months have seen a huge expansion in Sunday services between Lincoln and Nottingham and Lincoln and Sheffield, which are probably the two most important routes from the city. Offering services in the morning and significantly improved frequency has helped. Most trains to Nottingham are now quicker, most trains to Sheffield will be a few minutes quicker from May. The key thing I would have said for Lincolnshire would be to increase Lincoln to Nottingham to half-hourly. There is an obvious and very significant obstacle, to which I don't have a solution. The forthcoming increase in London trains is beneficial without doubt, but I would have thought that in terms of numbers and also local priorities for people who live in Lincoln, the best possible service to Nottingham is number 1?

An easy win might be had making the Barton-on-Humber Sunday service year round. As I understand it this route is primarily used by locals going to and from Barton-on-Humber so why a Sunday service in Winter isn't justified is slightly beyond me.

 

[xc170]

No. small towns in a rural county with little going for it beyond Lincoln.

So just ignore Lincolnshire then, do nothing to improve public transport and generate economic growth?

In other words, have your 153s and be grateful...

 

[Non Multi]

I thought Grand Central are planning to have London services to Cleethorpes via Doncaster when they have an all class 180 fleet next year.

 

[eastdyke]

So just ignore Lincolnshire then, do nothing to improve public transport and generate economic growth?
In other words, have your 153s and be grateful...

So where would you like the 25,000 homes to be built?
In rural Lincolnshire plans to build 10 make the headlines and bring forward rafts of objectors.

 

[Camden]

There are 77,000 people in Chester. Almost half of the population of Grimsby and Cleethorpes combined. From Chester, you have hourly trains to London alongside services to North Wales, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Manchester, Crewe, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Grimsby and Cleethorpes have one train per hour to the outside world.

It's all about demand though, and this is a good example. Chester sits at the end of Liverpool's Wirral Line, and 35 miles west of Manchester, which that flags up the difference. You're talking about comparing small/mid sized settlements in an overwhelmingly rural part of the country with a small/mid sized settlement in an overwhelmingly urban part of the country. There are around a million people in all of Lincolnshire versus around 7 million in the areas around Liverpool and Manchester, contained in less than half the geographic area of Lincolnshire.

Issues to do with improvements to Lincolnshire's trains relate far more to the state of rail travel in the country generally, for places like Lincolnshire. I'm sure they could be improved, but only by so much. In similar parts of other countries, some towns like these can only get a couple of trains a day remember.

 

[DarloRich]

So just ignore Lincolnshire then, do nothing to improve public transport and generate economic growth?

In other words, have your 153s and be grateful...

yes - pretty much.

 

[xc170]

yes - pretty much.

I'm glad not everyone shares your attitude and views.

 

[daodao]

No. small towns in a rural county with little going for it beyond Lincoln.

Grimsby/Cleethorpes is a substantial town with a population of well over 100k. This conurbation and East Lincolnshire as a whole were badly affected by closure of the main line via Louth in 1970, one of the worst post-Beeching closures, and the subsequent loss of through London trains via Lincoln put on as a replacement service. Sadly, there is no realistic prospect of the East Lincs line being rebuilt, as the trackbed has been obliterated in many places, but express services from Cleethorpes to London via Lincoln could be reinstated.

Other desirable improvements in Lincolnshire include increasing the frequency of the Cleethorpes-Lincoln service to hourly, with some trains extended to Nottingham/Derby, and a better service (regular throughout the day, preferably hourly) from Peterborough via Spalding and the ex GE/GN joint line to Doncaster.

 

[DarloRich]

Grimsby/Cleethorpes is a substantial town with a population of well over 100k.

With good connections to the TPE network and a decent service. I discount that area as part of this discussion.

This conurbation and East Lincolnshire as a whole were badly affected by closure of the main line via Louth in 1970, one of the worst post-Beeching closures, and the subsequent loss of through London trains via Lincoln put on as a replacement service. Sadly, there is no realistic prospect of the East Lincs line being rebuilt, as the trackbed has been obliterated in many places, but express services from Cleethorpes to London via Lincoln could be reinstated.

I agree - It would be a waste of money that could achieve more elsewhere in the country.

Other desirable improvements in Lincolnshire include increasing the frequency of the Cleethorpes-Lincoln service to hourly, with some trains extended to Nottingham/Derby, and a better service (regular throughout the day, preferably hourly) from Peterborough via Spalding and the ex GE/GN joint line to Doncaster.

Sorting out the services that do exist and go somewhere people want to go is a very sensible idea.

I'm glad not everyone shares your attitude and views.

I don't care what anyone else thinks but lets have a consider this for a moment - we have a finite pot of money to spend on the railways on this country. Why should Lincolnshire get a bigger share ( in fact any share) of this money? Why shouldn't I take that money and spend it, say, on the area around Leeds or Manchester and improve services that there. These trains carry many more people than the trains in Lincolnshire do and generate more fare revenue doing so. Why don't I take that money and spend it on regenerating one of the run down former industrial areas in the North East and improving the infrastructure there?

From an outsiders point of view Lincolnshire is a thinly populated, rural area with little economic activity beyond agriculture with much of that carried out by an itinerant, migrant workforce. Where, for instance, within Lincolnshire do people commute to and from? Where is the economic centre of the region? What are the economic "pulls" that require such a service improvement? Where are the people to pay the fares to return a benefit on this investment? What return can I expect as the investor of government or private money?

 

[daodao]

@DarloRich

Grimsby/Cleethorpes is clearly in the area covered by the thread header, and the hourly TPE service to Doncaster/Sheffield/Manchester is the only decent passenger rail service serving it. This compares badly with towns of equivalent size in other rural areas of England, such as Shrewsbury.

 

[DarloRich]

@DarloRich

Grimsby/Cleethorpes is clearly in the area covered by the thread header, and the hourly TPE service to Doncaster/Sheffield/Manchester is the only decent passenger rail service serving it. This compares badly with towns of equivalent size in other rural areas of England, such as Shrewsbury.

OBVIOUSLY Grimsby and Cleethorpes are in the geographical area under discussion. However of all the places within that area they have the best service. They have an hourly link to some of the larger Northern Cities and the ECML for onward connections. I cant see much room for improvement there.

 

[tbtc]

LINCOLN: Pop. 100,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield, Newark (for ECML), Nottingham and Leicester. Occasional services to Peterborough and London.

I'd suggest that Lincoln - Peterborough is more frequent than Lincoln - Doncaster?

There are 77,000 people in Chester. Almost half of the population of Grimsby and Cleethorpes combined. From Chester, you have hourly trains to London alongside services to North Wales, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Manchester, Crewe, Wolverhampton and Birmingham. Grimsby and Cleethorpes have one train per hour to the outside world.

Grimsby/ Cleethorpes are a long way from the kind of cities that people will commute to daily in large numbers.

Chester is in the Liverpool commuter belt (and Manchester, though less so), plus it's on the way to other places (in Wales and England), so acts as an interchange.

Grimsby/ Cleethorpes aren't on the way to anywhere and much of their potential hinterland is the Humber Estuary/ North Sea.

Chester has a university and has the kind of money that justifies regular London services. Cleethorpes is a retirement home for people from South Yorkshire.

Really no comparison.

So just ignore Lincolnshire then, do nothing to improve public transport and generate economic growth?

In other words, have your 153s and be grateful...

Heavy rail is great, but it's a blunt instrument, it's not the answer for every market.

A good guide to whether improved rail services would be justified would be to look at bus/ coach services. Are there any frequent bus/ coach routes in Lincolnshire that rail isn't catering for (or isn't catering for effectively)? If you can find that (say Galashiels - Edinburgh every half hour on the X95) then maybe there's a market for rail. If Stagecoach etc are struggling to fill a minibus once an hour then I wouldn't get too excited about scope for improved rail services.

Heavy rail really isn't the solution for every problem.

 

[cactustwirly]

Lincolnshire is too rural and doesn't really have a high enough population.
Anyway it looks up to Nottingham and Sheffield, I wouldn't of thought there would be much demand for eleswhere like Hull Norwich & Newcastle.
Leicester is the biggest city in the East Midlands, Nottingham is very marginally smaller & Sheffield is technically Yorkshire & larger than both cities.

But Sunday services could do with a huge improvement (this applies to the whole EMT franchise)

 

[philthetube]

So just ignore Lincolnshire then, do nothing to improve public transport and generate economic growth?.

I cannot work out why economic growth is such a wonderful thing, lets build housed for 7 million people have loads of pollution and crowded trains, I am sure that would make Lincolnshire a much nicer place to live.

 

[al78]

I cannot work out why economic growth is such a wonderful thing, lets build housed for 7 million people have loads of pollution and crowded trains, I am sure that would make Lincolnshire a much nicer place to live.

It isn't, but neo-liberal capitalism says it is and it must not be challenged.

The problem with the obsession with economic growth is that you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet with finite resources, this is basic mathematics, but the current day mantra seems to be consume consume consume some more and dump the consequences onto others.

http://www.kazabyte.com/2011/12/we-dont-understand-exponential-functions.html

 

[whhistle]

The key thing I would have said for Lincolnshire would be to increase Lincoln to Nottingham to half-hourly.

Or a Leicester - (Melton/Oakham/Stamford Route) - Lincoln - Skegness
I'd have thought it would save a bit of time rather than heading up to Nottingham to change.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Grimsby/ Cleethorpes are a long way from the kind of cities that people will commute to daily in large numbers.

That's not quite true, it's just that the main commuter draw for North East Lincolnshire is to Hull, which can't be served by train. The train service is perfectly adequate for commuting towards Sheffield and Doncaster.

Lincoln-Peterborough- as the fastest way to London- could do with a better service. But generally what we have is what Lincolnshire needs- a broadly hourly service on the main corridors, less frequently on the smaller routes. Grimsby-Lincoln really doesn't need much more than a 153 shuttling backwards and forwards.

 

[MG11]

The only railway station in Lincolnshire with a better-than occasional InterCity service is Grantham (Lincoln's is set to improve by the sounds of things, but only to London). Besides the routes from other towns into Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham or Leicester, only Grantham has direct services to large centres of population (Liverpool, Norwich, York, Leeds, Hull, occasionally Newcastle and Edinburgh). Is this a problem?

Maybe it's time to look at things settlement-by-settlement.

GRIMSBY & CLEETHORPES: Population. 130,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Manchester.
LINCOLN: Pop. 100,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield, Newark (for ECML), Nottingham and Leicester. Occasional services to Peterborough and London.
SCUNTHORPE: Pop. 80,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Manchester.
GRANTHAM: Pop. 42,000. Regular services to London, Leeds, York, Nottingham, Norwich, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool. Occasional services to Darlington (Teesside), Newcastle and Edinburgh.
BOSTON: Pop. 41,000. Hourly service to Nottingham (Grantham for ECML).
SPALDING: Pop. 32,000. Hourly-ish service to Peterborough.
SKEGNESS: Pop. 25,000. Hourly service to Nottingham (Grantham for ECML).
GAINSBOROUGH: Pop. 21,000. Regular services to Doncaster, Sheffield and Retford (for ECML).
STAMFORD: Pop. 20,000. Hourly services to Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough and Cambridge.
SLEAFORD: Pop. 17,000. Hourly services to Nottingham and Peterborough.

All these times are for off-peak services during midweek.

The next town on the list, Louth, has no train service. North Hykeham is served, but by a station some distance away from the town in a sort of hinterland of what Wikipedia terms as 'urban sprawl'. There are no stations at Bourne, Market Deeping or Mablethorpe. From Barton-upon-Humber, you can reach Grimsby and Cleethorpes. No such luck at Immingham. Holbeach and Horncastle are both isolated in the Fens and Wolds respectively with not even a sniff of a Class 153 diesel unit to be had. Brigg may as well be on another planet, one where trains do exist but only on Saturdays...

Should something be done?

Lincoln Central did ought to have more regular direct services to London IMO. I think, also, extending the Birmingham-Nottingham services (Excluding those to/from Cardiff) to Lincoln might be a good idea. Birmingham to Nottingham is a relatively short distance for an XC service.

Grantham does fair best, I agree.

Cleethorpes does well having an express service with First Class and Catering to large cities like Manchester and Sheffield and to an extent, Doncaster. That being the tourism aspect of Cleethorpes is in a state of decline IMO.

 

[backontrack]

Lincoln Central did ought to have more regular direct services to London IMO. I think, also, extending the Birmingham-Nottingham services (Excluding those to/from Cardiff) to Lincoln might be a good idea. Birmingham to Nottingham is a relatively short distance for an XC service.

That's a good suggestion.

R.E. Chester and Grimsby being completely different; of course that's the case. But it does illustrate my point, because, regardless of circumstances, there's double the population just south of the Humber (it increases hugely again with Scunthorpe, and grows still further with Waltham and Immingham) and yet there's only the main service to Sheffield and the stopper to Newark.

 

[nottsnurse]

Leicester is the biggest city in the East Midlands,

Err, no its not.

Whichever way populations are measured, city vs city (Nottingham = 532,000 vs Leicester = 442,000) or metropolitan area vs metropolitan area (Nottingham = 1,534,000 vs Leicester = 745,000), Leicester is significantly smaller.

Even geographically Leicester is smaller (Nottingham = 28.81sq miles vs Leicester = 28.31 sq miles).