Could InterCity services be devolved in any new structure, and if so, how?

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rail-franchising-to-face-the-axe-in-2020.193480/

Slightly puzzled how long Inter City routes would be devolved, as surely several regions would want a say? Maybe it's only for local services.

I suspect they would be separated like in many other countries. However, the problem with that is that there is in a lot of the UK a significant overlap - for instance there is no regional service from Warrington Bank Quay to Wigan North Western.

Having said that, there is the odd IC in Germany that is "IC until <station> and RE thereafter" so it isn't insurmountable.

 

[Meerkat]

Why devolve InterCity? They can stay national, a bit like Highways England roads

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Why devolve InterCity? They can stay national, a bit like Highways England roads

I suspect it will be a separate model for that. I have heard Competition model

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect it will be a separate model for that. I have heard Competition model

If they are going for that radical (so I guess looking a bit like Italy maybe?) - what on earth were they playing at awarding the WCML franchise first?

 

[cactustwirly]

Having said that, there is the odd IC in Germany that is "IC until <station> and RE thereafter" so it isn't insurmountable.

You have an example of this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have an example of this?

I don't know a current one, but the IC Koenigssee (2082/2083) from Hamburg to Berchtesgaden Hbf (one train pair) was one I've been on, it ran as IC (supplement payable) as far as Freilassing then as either a RB or RE using the IC rolling stock in a RB/RE path to Berchtesgaden Hbf at regional fares. I understand from a Google it was withdrawn a few months ago, sadly, though it might be back when some long term engineering works are done.

I suppose it's not entirely dissimilar to some National Express services having bits registered as local bus services. I'd expect some of the branch line ICs to end up like this if we did go for that model, with sections supported by the regions but the main IC trunk being commercial. Scotland's a bit different but you could imagine the FW portion of the Cally being a "RB" between Edinburgh and FW, it already just shows on most displays as an Edinburgh train with through coaches.

 

[30907]

Apart from Bletchleyite's example, there are several IC routes in Germany that are usable by local ticket holders, though on carying terms: Bremen-Norddeich, Rostock-Stralsund, a handful round Berlin, and Stuttgart-Singen (now or soon?).

 

[xotGD]

Inter City. National network. Operated as a public service. Is that so difficult?

Tell you what, to further avoid 'fragmentation', throw in the rest of the passenger services too.

 

[ashkeba]

If they are going for that radical (so I guess looking a bit like Italy maybe?) - what on earth were they playing at awarding the WCML franchise first?

The Christian Democrats just had to punsih Beardy for confronting them in 2012?

 

[PeterC]

Divided between three or four operational contracts but marketed under a single Inter City brand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from Bletchleyite's example, there are several IC routes in Germany that are usable by local ticket holders, though on carying terms: Bremen-Norddeich, Rostock-Stralsund, a handful round Berlin, and Stuttgart-Singen (now or soon?).

As an aside Wiki confirms that up to withdrawal the Koenigssee did operate as a RE (not RB) from Freilassing (REs can operate all stations, the term just means it's part of a connectional Takt):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berchtesgaden_Hauptbahnhof

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from Bletchleyite's example, there are several IC routes in Germany that are usable by local ticket holders, though on carying terms: Bremen-Norddeich, Rostock-Stralsund, a handful round Berlin, and Stuttgart-Singen (now or soon?).

It also was the case that Thalys had an unreserved coach for local travellers within Germany, though since DB's falling out with them I wouldn't be surprised were that no longer the case.

 

[Meerkat]

Divided between three or four operational contracts but marketed under a single Inter City brand.

Apart from nostalgia what is the gain?

 

[PeterC]

Apart from nostalgia what is the gain?

Nostalgia? I said AN Inter City brand not THE
Sorry, I should have used lower case but I did say AN inter city brand not THE Inter City brand.

What was the gain in 1972 by marketing all the regional bus companies' coach services as National Express?

 

[Meerkat]

So what is the gain for a national intercity brand?
It’s as likely to cross contaminate as support - one bad apple....

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what is the gain for a national intercity brand?
It’s as likely to cross contaminate as support - one bad apple....

I would go for a train category rather than a brand. So a train is categorised InterCity because it covers a certain minimum distance, has a certain minimum standard (2+1 1st, 2+2 Std, catering provided[1], for instance) but it would be operated by a TOC brand. So you could have EMR InterCity[2], ScotRail Inter(7)City, LNER InterCity or whatever. In latter BR days you still had this - XC for instance had InterCity CrossCountry for the HSTs and LHCS, but CrossCountry Express for the 158 operated routes.

[1] How picky you get on this kind of thing is for debate - if you get Germanically picky you could have trains running as IC for part of their route and D (Durchgangs-Schnellzug - corridored express train) for the rest when the trolley gets off

[2] I was surprised to see that back - didn't it disappear because DaFT were charging hefty premia for it?

 

[Indigo Soup]

In latter BR days you still had this - XC for instance had InterCity CrossCountry for the HSTs and LHCS, but CrossCountry Express for the 158 operated routes.

Now that's an interesting titbit, because it's suggestive of some unity of branding and rolling stock - what are now being branded Inter7City were once Scotrail Express, whilst what used to be Central Citylink was once Midland Express and of course Transpennine Express is still with us. All 158-operated routes. A shame that Alphaline confused matters.