Could Green Line expand?

[Mikey C]

If congestion wasn't such an issue a
Dartford to Croydon link could have potential, orbital bus links are needed in London, its amazing that a city (more accurately metropolis) the size of London has just 3 TfL operated express routes:
The already mentioned X26 and the X68 and 607, the former being a proper express link, the X68 is highly unusual since it parallels the Thameslink essentially, where as the 607 is there because there are no rail or tube links paralleling the Uxbridge Road.



In lieu of there being no direct rail links between North & West Kent and South East London to Gatwick Airport, then a Greenline bus would work on this corridor,
At the moment people who don't have a car either have to rely on taxi or a lengthy train journey with one or more interchanges, ironically Kent & SE London has or will very soon have a direct rail link to Heathrow and Luton, both of which are completely the other side of London.

Taxis are cheap enough though whereas a coach would have to serve several stops to get a decent load AND you'd still have to get to those stops with your luggage. 3 or 4 people in a taxi and the price becomes competitive. Or you ask someone for a lift to the airport!

The train journey isn't that bad either, depending on where you live. 30 minutes to London Bridge on the comfy Class 700s () then change there for your local train.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Taxis are cheap enough though whereas a coach would have to serve several stops to get a decent load AND you'd still have to get to those stops with your luggage. 3 or 4 people in a taxi and the price becomes competitive. Or you ask someone for a lift to the airport!

The train journey isn't that bad either, depending on where you live. 30 minutes to London Bridge on the comfy Class 700s () then change there for your local train.

A bed of nails would be more comfortable than the seats on the 700s

Interesting news about the new route 703 i think though the 702 could still run to Bracknell even if its 1bp2h, however i like what Reading Buses are doing with the route

 

[Busaholic]

If congestion wasn't such an issue a
Dartford to Croydon link could have potential, orbital bus links are needed in London, its amazing that a city (more accurately metropolis) the size of London has just 3 TfL operated express routes:
The already mentioned X26 and the X68 and 607, the former being a proper express link, the X68 is highly unusual since it parallels the Thameslink essentially, where as the 607 is there because there are no rail or tube links paralleling the Uxbridge Road.



In lieu of there being no direct rail links between North & West Kent and South East London to Gatwick Airport, then a Greenline bus would work on this corridor,
At the moment people who don't have a car either have to rely on taxi or a lengthy train journey with one or more interchanges, ironically Kent & SE London has or will very soon have a direct rail link to Heathrow and Luton, both of which are completely the other side of London.

I think, apart from the congestion problem, the main issue of a link to Gatwick from these areas is that of a lack of regular travellers, either potential airline passengers or staff. Relying on someone making a one-off journey and return perhaps once a year, from Bromley say, particularly if a flight has to be connected with, would be foolish imo. My sister has made similar journeys in the past and, as a non-driver, has ordered a taxi every time for the outward journey and, frankly, so would I in her circumstances. Loadings would be lousy.

 

[Samuel88]

I think, apart from the congestion problem, the main issue of a link to Gatwick from these areas is that of a lack of regular travellers, either potential airline passengers or staff. Relying on someone making a one-off journey and return perhaps once a year, from Bromley say, particularly if a flight has to be connected with, would be foolish imo. My sister has made similar journeys in the past and, as a non-driver, has ordered a taxi every time for the outward journey and, frankly, so would I in her circumstances. Loadings would be lousy.

I agree with this 100%. In fact Courtney coaches tried to run such a service between Bracknell and Luton Airport, it lasted less than six months.

 

[CatfordCat]

some of the obstacles to expansion of express services in the London and south east patch -

ever increasing traffic congestion affecting reliability, and potentially attracting attention from the traffic commissioners for poor punctuality (unless the timetable has so much recovery time at intermediate points that it will cause unattractive journey times)

the TFL / commercial market divide at the boundary causing regulation / fares complications

TFL insistence on one flat fare no matter what - more services within greater London like the X26 might be viable with fares closer to a commercial level, and in TFL's current financial situation, they aren't going to put money in to new services

The need for more than one traffic objective along the route. The 702 (for example) and the Oxford express coaches get a fair amount of traffic from central London to Legoland / Oxford, it's not just one way London commuter traffic which only makes use of a coach for perhaps 4 hours in a day.

Critical mass needed for routes to airports - it needs to be a frequent service to attract passengers. A couple of return journeys a day won't fit in with many flight departures and won't be any good if the flight home is delayed.

 

[A0]

The need for more than one traffic objective along the route. The 702 (for example) and the Oxford express coaches get a fair amount of traffic from central London to Legoland / Oxford, it's not just one way London commuter traffic which only makes use of a coach for perhaps 4 hours in a day.

Critical mass needed for routes to airports - it needs to be a frequent service to attract passengers. A couple of return journeys a day won't fit in with many flight departures and won't be any good if the flight home is delayed.

The Oxford coaches had / have another advantage - competitive journey time. It's about 1 - 1h 10m from Oxford to either Marylebone or Paddington, the Oxford Tube is only 10 mins slower to Holland Park (nearest stop to Paddington) or 1h 40m if you go all the way to Victoria - which by the time you've changed at Paddington or Marylebone is little or no slower.

GLs from other areas were never as competitive - the recently discontinued 797 being a case in point from Stevenage.

 

[Mikey C]

The Oxford coaches had / have another advantage - competitive journey time. It's about 1 - 1h 10m from Oxford to either Marylebone or Paddington, the Oxford Tube is only 10 mins slower to Holland Park (nearest stop to Paddington) or 1h 40m if you go all the way to Victoria - which by the time you've changed at Paddington or Marylebone is little or no slower.

GLs from other areas were never as competitive - the recently discontinued 797 being a case in point from Stevenage.

Yes, the Oxford coaches run in fairly unique circumstances as the M40/A40 is probably the best road into Central London.

 

[Hophead]

Yes, the Oxford coaches run in fairly unique circumstances as the M40/A40 is probably the best road into Central London.

But there's more to it even than that:

• The station is located slightly to the west of the city centre
• Oxford is very lop-sided in its population distribution, with most people living on the eastern side
• London is to the east, and the coaches pass that way

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The 724 is only really 'Green Line' in it's number. The vehicles appear in standard Arriva livery (albeit sometimes having specific branding), it isn't really a limited stop service more like a long local route.
Only the 702 and 758 appear close to the original Green Line concept (the 757 is an airport express akin to the Stansted service) .
With Hemel station lying in Boxmoor to the West of town and the 758 serving the East of town on it's way to the M1 and Brent Cross the 758 has remained viable.
If anything though it is more likely that those two remaining Green Line services will eventually contract further.

 

[Deerfold]

If congestion wasn't such an issue a
Dartford to Croydon link could have potential, orbital bus links are needed in London, its amazing that a city (more accurately metropolis) the size of London has just 3 TfL operated express routes:
The already mentioned X26 and the X68 and 607, the former being a proper express link, the X68 is highly unusual since it parallels the Thameslink essentially, where as the 607 is there because there are no rail or tube links paralleling the Uxbridge Road.

The 607 was a direct replacement for the Trolley bus 607. Not many of those remain.

A few years ago, TfL did some research on running express buses. This showed that unless congestion improved significantly expresses saved people less time on average than if the buses used on the express service were used to increase frequency on parallel routes which could be boarded at any stop. The 607s frequently get stuck behind other buses so often save little time by missing out stops.

 

[Deerfold]

I agree with this 100%. In fact Courtney coaches tried to run such a service between Bracknell and Luton Airport, it lasted less than six months.

I'm not altogether surprised. It cost £40 single and had two trips a day.

 

[transmanche]

The 607 was a direct replacement for the Trolley bus 607.

Route 207 was the direct replacement for the 607 trolleybus. The current 607 is an express version of the 207 which was introduced in 1990, long after trolleybuses had disappeared.

The 6xx number series had previously been used by LT for a couple of limited-stop 'express' routes (the 615 and 616). I suspect it was this and the 'happy coincidence' with the former trolleybus route number that made this route the 607 rather than X7 or X207.

 

[Deerfold]

Route 207 was the direct replacement for the 607 trolleybus. The current 607 is an express version of the 207 which was introduced in 1990, long after trolleybuses had disappeared.

The 6xx number series had previously been used by LT for a couple of limited-stop 'express' routes (the 615 and 616). I suspect it was this and the 'happy coincidence' with the former trolleybus route number that made this route the 607 rather than X7 or X207.

My mistake - I hadn't realised the 607 bus was so recent - I was using it not long after it started!

 

[Busaholic]

Route 207 was the direct replacement for the 607 trolleybus. The current 607 is an express version of the 207 which was introduced in 1990, long after trolleybuses had disappeared.

The 6xx number series had previously been used by LT for a couple of limited-stop 'express' routes (the 615 and 616). I suspect it was this and the 'happy coincidence' with the former trolleybus route number that made this route the 607 rather than X7 or X207.

I remember the 615 - the day it was introduced coincided with the first weekday operation of a bus in the SMS class on route 70, and a couple of us from LT Bus Schedules Dept went for a ride on both routes after work. The 615 we travelled on from Aldgate to the prosaically-named Iron Bridge Tavern in Poplar, in the p.m. peak, contained precisely no other passengers all journey, and the route was declared a failure not too long after, with final withdrawal a year later. The MBS vehicles used had the unpopular low driving position, which made it appear that all the drivers were about four foot tall!

 

[brtom]

Perhaps related to this thread, the coming may will see the creation of a new greenline service, Reading- buses operated 703 Bracknell - Heathrow Airport. This will effectively replace lost service from a truncated 702, which now runs Windsor - London Victoria, with the exception of a few Brackenll extensions in the peak. Bracknell - Victoria passengers will be able to change at Legoland, which the new service will still serve. North Ascot will also only be served 2 hourly, to allow the 703 occasional faster runs along the main road. More info is on the reading buses website.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there's more to it even than that:

• The station is located slightly to the west of the city centre
• Oxford is very lop-sided in its population distribution, with most people living on the eastern side
• London is to the east, and the coaches pass that way

And the huge tourist market.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with this 100%. In fact Courtney coaches tried to run such a service between Bracknell and Luton Airport, it lasted less than six months.

And NatEx tried a commuter service from MK. I used it a couple of times as it went past what was then my office at exactly the right time. It wasn't really popular - double seats for everyone at least. The train, however bad it was at the time (and it was in the early LM days when things *really were* going badly with many short-forms and cancellations daily), was far quicker, so all the passengers stayed with it.

 

[Deerfold]

And the huge tourist market.

Which had already been mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Antman]

And is now double-deck (which wouldn't be feasible if extended east via Shortlands and its low bridge).

It could have been rerouted around the Shortlands bridge and serve Bromley South in the process.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Perhaps related to this thread, the coming may will see the creation of a new greenline service, Reading- buses operated 703 Bracknell - Heathrow Airport. This will effectively replace lost service from a truncated 702, which now runs Windsor - London Victoria, with the exception of a few Brackenll extensions in the peak. Bracknell - Victoria passengers will be able to change at Legoland, which the new service will still serve. North Ascot will also only be served 2 hourly, to allow the 703 occasional faster runs along the main road. More info is on the reading buses website.

That wouldn't really be a Green Line service though - just another airport link. The Green Line brand primarily connected London with it's hinterland - with a few orbital services thrown in.

 

[PeterC]

From the web site I believe that it will carry Green Line branding.

 

[Non Multi]

It's got a Greenline number, so there is a two bus per hour 'Greenline' service between Langley and Legoland Windsor. They could have used the old 191 route number (from the Beeline/First Beeline era that ran along the same route) using their Thames Valley branding. Using the Greenline brand for both routes is probably more helpful for tourists.

 

[Deerfold]

Perhaps related to this thread, the coming may will see the creation of a new greenline service, Reading- buses operated 703 Bracknell - Heathrow Airport. This will effectively replace lost service from a truncated 702, which now runs Windsor - London Victoria, with the exception of a few Brackenll extensions in the peak. Bracknell - Victoria passengers will be able to change at Legoland, which the new service will still serve. North Ascot will also only be served 2 hourly, to allow the 703 occasional faster runs along the main road. More info is on the reading buses website.

Is that the same one mentioned in post #25?

 

[brtom]

Is that the same one mentioned in post #25?

It is indeed ! I'm late to the party!

 

[Be3G]

A few years ago, TfL did some research on running express buses. This showed that unless congestion improved significantly expresses saved people less time on average than if the buses used on the express service were used to increase frequency on parallel routes which could be boarded at any stop. The 607s frequently get stuck behind other buses so often save little time by missing out stops.

Interesting. Did that research though take in to account the fact that express buses tend to be longer routes which provide extra journey opportunities without changing? I suppose the experience is different in central London, but I tend to find that what wastes the most time when travelling in zone 5/6 is having to get off one bus, wait 15 minutes for the next next one, get off that, wait another 10 minutes… obviously one express route could only cater for one specific combination of connections, but I still feel more orbital expresses in outer zones à la the X26 would be useful.

 

[Bungle965]

Thought I would post it in here as it is kind of related, but Martijn Gilbert has put on his Twitter feed what the new order for Greenline is. Quite surprising but Optare Metrodecker's are the answer! They seem to have gone from having no orders for their double decker product to having a couple with First West Yorkshire also having ordered some.

Sam

 

[alex397]

Good to hear, I quite like the Metrodecker. It looks good (although I think the E400 MMC is the best looking current DD at the moment), and I think the ride is comfortable (from my experience of just one half-hour ride).

I do wonder why there have been no orders for a Metrodecker since the demonstrators were launched 3 years ago in 2015!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If Thameslink carry on with the current debacle there may be an opening for a return of Green Line services

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If Thameslink carry on with the current debacle there may be an opening for a return of Green Line services

have the 757's been much busier as a result of the Thameslink mess?

 

[Busaholic]

If Thameslink carry on with the current debacle there may be an opening for a return of Green Line services

Only if they rip up the railway lines and put in bus/coach lanes as advocated by Prof Peter Hall of (interestingly!) Reading University all those years ago: he had the ear of one of Margaret Thatcher's policy wonks, Alfred Sherman, but it still didn't happen, for which I say Thank the Lord.