Could GBR speed up train services?

[devon_belle]

There have been several recent threads about slowed-down services, especially around London, compared to the BR era or even the 2010s. Yet, my preconception is that modern trains have better acceleration and signalling arrangements should allow more, faster trains than ever.

In my own experience on Southern, there seems to be an incredible amount of pathing time, very slow acceleration/defensive driving, and generally much slacker timetables than before. It seems that speed and utility of the timetable has been traded for robustness against delays - but has this been successful? How much of this comes down to TOC finances, and could GBR change anything about that?

Do you think GBR could reverse the trend of slowing down services? Might it?

 

[The Planner]

There have been several recent threads about slowed-down services, especially around London, compared to the BR era or even the 2010s. Yet, my preconception is that modern trains have better acceleration and signalling arrangements should allow more, faster trains than ever.

In my own experience on Southern, there seems to be an incredible amount of pathing time, very slow acceleration/defensive driving, and generally much slacker timetables than before. It seems that speed and utility of the timetable has been traded for robustness against delays - but has this been successful? How much of this comes down to TOC finances, and could GBR change anything about that?

Do you think GBR could reverse the trend of slowing down services? Might it?

Not unless it takes trains out of the timetable.

 

[devon_belle]

Not unless it takes trains out of the timetable.

Even where pre-covid levels have not been restored? Has the infrastructure been downgraded to support fewer trains?

 

[The exile]

Robustness against delays is probably in more people’s interest than the odd minute shaved off a schedule. The “problem” is that one doesn’t notice “robustness” - only its absence.

 

[winks]

I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure Southern services on the BML were a lot faster pre 2010. Cant remember exactly but it seem fast but probably less stops on the way to (East Croydon > Brighton).

 

[VItraveller]

potentially, if they remove stops from certain services.
For example, with XC, they could take out calls at Stockport, Wolverhampton, Coventry and Southampton Airport Parkway to reduce the overall journey time and prevent the trains from being crowded with short hop passengers.

 

[The Planner]

potentially, if they remove stops from certain services.
For example, with XC, they could take out calls at Stockport, Wolverhampton, Coventry and Southampton Airport Parkway to reduce the overall journey time and prevent the trains from being crowded with short hop passengers.

That only works if it actually allows a timetable change, in most cases it won't.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I may be wrong but I’m pretty sure Southern services on the BML were a lot faster pre 2010. Cant remember exactly but it seem fast but probably less stops on the way to (East Croydon > Brighton).

50 or so years ago, some trains ran non-stop between Victoria and Brighton. I used them many times.

 

[cle]

50 or so years ago, some trains ran non-stop between Victoria and Brighton. I used them many times.

And yet East Croydon and Gatwick today need ~20tph from London. So it's a different time.

Also look at Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill growth in the interim too.

 

[swt_passenger]

potentially, if they remove stops from certain services.
For example, with XC, they could take out calls at Stockport, Wolverhampton, Coventry and Southampton Airport Parkway to reduce the overall journey time and prevent the trains from being crowded with short hop passengers.

I suspect Southampton Parkway is too important a flow to miss out. It saves XC passengers having to get to the city centre, it’s not just an airport station.

 

[brad465]

There are more passenger services, and I wouldn't be surprised if also more freight services on key routes, than decades ago. It doesn't help that various levels of government have supported building housing estates and just hoping the infrastructure (transport and other sectors) already present is sufficient, when often it's not.

 

[Bald Rick]

How much of this comes down to TOC finances

Precisely none.

GBR will make no difference compared to now in the process (and plans) for speeding up services.

 

[devon_belle]

Precisely none.

GBR will make no difference compared to now in the process (and plans) for speeding up services.

Thanks. I've seen plenty of people blame the increased slack in timetables on the privatised railway, implying TOCs want to avoid paying for delay minutes and as such have padded many services to reduce the risk of delays. Is this totally false? Apologies for the naïve question. Again I am mostly coming from a Southern/SWR commuter perspective.

 

[Harpo]

I've seen plenty of people blame the increased slack in timetables on the privatised railway, implying TOCs want to avoid paying for delay minutes and as such have padded many services to reduce the risk of delays. Is this totally false?

John Major’s Customer/Passenger Charter pre-dated privatisation and made many bits of the railway keenly aware of the cash which would leave the industry if punctuality and reliability was poor.

As the punctuality measure was based on arrival at destination only, that was where the WTT or GBTT padding went. To start with.

 

[irish_rail]

If anything journeys will be slowed down, South West and South Wales to Paddington will be 5 to ten minutes slower once OOC opens. May suit some, but listening to the vast majority of decision makes and politicians out West, there is much skepticism.

 

[The Planner]

If anything journeys will be slowed down, South West and South Wales to Paddington will be 5 to ten minutes slower once OOC opens. May suit some, but listening to the vast majority of decision makes and politicians out West, there is much skepticism.

Where is 10 coming from?

 

[Grumpy Git]

The fastest Avanti service between Liverpool and London Euston is currently 2h 20m as far as I can see.

If I remember correctly, large billboards in this area advertised this journey at 2h 6m when Virgin first introduced the Pendolino's, which is more than an 11% increase!

 

[irish_rail]

Where is 10 coming from?

Reality, simple as. I work these services and I can see the reality of trains slowing for the old oak station stop , slowing from 125mph, different driving styles etc, trains running out of course / delayed etc and you will soon see trains backing up way before the Ealing area due to the OOC stop. Added to the (at least) 3 minutes required to deal with the station stop itself (we aren't talking commuter trains here but intercity ones with leisure passengers with lots of luggage, and if Reading is anything to go by almost always at least one disabled "assist"). There is then a minute or so to get back to 50mph for final run into Paddington. I'm sure on paper less than 10 minutes overall will be "planned in" but I can guarantee you that the reality will be very different from what is planned without major capacity increases on the western approach to OOC for intercity trains.

 

[The Planner]

Reality, simple as. I work these services and I can see the reality of trains slowing for the old oak station stop , slowing from 125mph, different driving styles etc, trains running out of course / delayed etc and you will soon see trains backing up way before the Ealing area due to the OOC stop. Added to the (at least) 3 minutes required to deal with the station stop itself (we aren't talking commuter trains here but intercity ones with leisure passengers with lots of luggage, and if Reading is anything to go by almost always at least one disabled "assist"). There is then a minute or so to get back to 50mph for final run into Paddington. I'm sure on paper less than 10 minutes overall will be "planned in" but I can guarantee you that the reality will be very different from what is planned without major capacity increases on the western approach to OOC for intercity trains.

Trains running out of course and delays are irrelevant to this. A Didcot stop with a 2 minute dwell costs 4½ minutes under the same conditions and accelerating back up to 125mph. Presumably that works disastrously?

 

[irish_rail]

Trains running out of course and delays are irrelevant to this. A Didcot stop with a 2 minute dwell costs 4½ minutes under the same conditions and accelerating back up to 125mph. Presumably that works disastrously?

No, it isn't irrelevant. The Western shouldn't be treated as a "guinea pig" in order to justify Old Oak commons existence. Didcot on the Bristol lines isn't comparable with the approaches to Paddington. Didcot has about 5 fast trains heading for London, so less than every 10 minutes. Anyone with any knowledge of Reading to Paddington knows the service barely works as it is with the 387s and Heathrows mixing with IETs on the fast, and just how much impeded running is experienced on a day to day basis. To brush this off as irrelevant just isn't fair, as it's those of us using that line that will live with the consequences when it all goes t*ts up. And when the initial timings are found to be "optomistic" then the journey times will be quietly extended when all the hype has died down.

 

[irish_rail]

* 5 fast trains per hour from Didcot to London

 

[The Planner]

No, it isn't irrelevant. The Western shouldn't be treated as a "guinea pig" in order to justify Old Oak commons existence. Didcot on the Bristol lines isn't comparable with the approaches to Paddington. Didcot has about 5 fast trains heading for London, so less than every 10 minutes. Anyone with any knowledge of Reading to Paddington knows the service barely works as it is with the 387s and Heathrows mixing with IETs on the fast, and just how much impeded running is experienced on a day to day basis. To brush this off as irrelevant just isn't fair, as it's those of us using that line that will live with the consequences when it all goes t*ts up. And when the initial timings are found to be "optomistic" then the journey times will be quietly extended when all the hype has died down.

Why is the Western being treated as a guinea pig? You are living with it now, like any route that suffers disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

If anything journeys will be slowed down, South West and South Wales to Paddington will be 5 to ten minutes slower once OOC opens. May suit some, but listening to the vast majority of decision makes and politicians out West, there is much skepticism.

Where is 10 coming from?

Or even 5?

It will be 4 at most, maybe even three, as 90sec dwell will be enough for ‘one way’ dwells.

 

[deltic08]

There have been several recent threads about slowed-down services, especially around London, compared to the BR era or even the 2010s. Yet, my preconception is that modern trains have better acceleration and signalling arrangements should allow more, faster trains than ever.

In my own experience on Southern, there seems to be an incredible amount of pathing time, very slow acceleration/defensive driving, and generally much slacker timetables than before. It seems that speed and utility of the timetable has been traded for robustness against delays - but has this been successful? How much of this comes down to TOC finances, and could GBR change anything about that?

Do you think GBR could reverse the trend of slowing down services? Might it?

I hope so for the Battersby-Whitby line.
This line is now 100% cwr and concrete/steel sleepers in the last 5/6 years partly paid for by NYCC but the line speed is still 35/45 from Battersby-Grosmont and 25/30 Grosmont to Whitby taking 90 minutes to Middlesbrough. Rather too long for daily commuting by rail.
The first adjustment surely is removal of 20/10mph slack over a half barriered level crossing on a straight length of track over Battersby Rd where 50mph is possible, yet 35 mph is allowed across an open crossing the other side of Kildale. I have seen half barriers on lines where the line speed is 90mph. Why only 20mph here?
45/35mph is the line speed for all traffic on the line even when there are long stretches where 50/55 mph are possible and 60mph with canting. (not as severe as the 50mph canted curve at Rotherham Masborough)
45/50mph is possible between Sleights and Grosmont if a 25mph curve is slewed half way all on railway land.
Why haven't MU speeds been introduced to enable 10/15 mph increase in speeds?
I think Whitby-Middlesbrough times could be bettered by 10-15 minutes at very little cost if the will is there.
A curve at Battersby to avoid a reversal is still a pipe dream but all these improvements would reduce the time to Middlesbrough to an attractive 60 minutes.

 

[devon_belle]

I hope so for the Battersby-Whitby line.
This line is now 100% cwr and concrete/steel sleepers in the last 5/6 years partly paid for by NYCC but the line speed is still 35/45 from Battersby-Grosmont and 25/30 Grosmont to Whitby taking 90 minutes to Middlesbrough. Rather too long for daily commuting by rail.
The first adjustment surely is removal of 20/10mph slack over a half barriered level crossing on a straight length of track over Battersby Rd where 50mph is possible, yet 35 mph is allowed across an open crossing the other side of Kildale. I have seen half barriers on lines where the line speed is 90mph. Why only 20mph here?
45/35mph is the line speed for all traffic on the line even when there are long stretches where 50/55 mph are possible and 60mph with canting. (not as severe as the 50mph canted curve at Rotherham Masborough)
45/50mph is possible between Sleights and Grosmont if a 25mph curve is slewed half way all on railway land.
Why haven't MU speeds been introduced to enable 10/15 mph increase in speeds?
I think Whitby-Middlesbrough times could be bettered by 10-15 minutes at very little cost if the will is there.
A curve at Battersby to avoid a reversal is still a pipe dream but all these improvements would reduce the time to Middlesbrough to an attractive 60 minutes.

I was thinking more about timetabling than actual infrastructure changes, as those are already Network Rail's responsibility so I don't see GBR changing it too much?

 

[irish_rail]

Or even 5?

It will be 4 at most, maybe even three, as 90sec dwell will be enough for ‘one way’ dwells.

So you believe that Old Oak Common will cost a train just 3 minutes on the current schedule? Frankly I'm lost for words. Time will tell, but I rather suspect my predictions of closer to 10 will prove rather more practical in the real world.

 

[Bald Rick]

So you believe that Old Oak Common will cost a train just 3 minutes on the current schedule? Frankly I'm lost for words. Time will tell, but I rather suspect my predictions of closer to 10 will prove rather more practical in the real world.

I’ll bet you a hundred quid it’s closer to three minutes than 10.

 

[The Planner]

I’ll bet you a hundred quid it’s closer to three minutes than 10.

Count me in too.

 

[irish_rail]

I’ll bet you a hundred quid it’s closer to three minutes than 10.

I've no doubt they will go with a generally unachievable 6 minutes or whatever to start with, but I'd bet my mortgage that after a couple of years of actual running, that my 10 minute figure will become the more accurate one.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've no doubt they will go with a generally unachievable 6 minutes or whatever to start with, but I'd bet my mortgage that after a couple of years of actual running, that my 10 minute figure will become the more accurate one.

How much is your mortgage?