Could Gatwick Express paths be re-used for something else?

[nw1]

This arises from the current discussion on Gatwick Express, but is speculative so I'm placing it here.

Namely, given that GX is on long term suspension, could the paths be re-used for something else?

I note that two of the paths (xx00 and xx30) are currently being used for a fast-ish Brighton service, though it misses Clapham Junction; I would probably replace the Haywards Heath call with a Clapham call personally, as Haywards Heath has other fast services while Clapham has NO off-peak direct services to Brighton at all, for the first time since before 1981.

Could the xx15 and xx45 paths also be used for a (slighty slower) Brighton service maybe, to give a 15-min-interval fast or semi-fast service between Victoria and Brighton and extra capacity to Gatwick? Or, when Gatwick travel recovers (and given the dropping of Covid restrictions by several countries, perhaps this will be the coming summer) a non-premium-priced crowd-busting Gatwick shuttle, calling at Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

 

[mmh]

a non-premium-priced crowd-busting Gatwick shuttle, calling at Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

A Gatwick shuttle calling at East Croydon would effectively be an East Croydon shuttle. There's (at least with the normal timetable) no need for additional Croydon to Gatwick services - that's covered by Thameslink and other Southern services - unless the aim is to add capacity to/from East Croydon. Nobody would deliberately aim for an airport terminator from East Croydon, they'd just take the next or most conveniently timed train.

 

[nw1]

A Gatwick shuttle calling at East Croydon would effectively be an East Croydon shuttle. There's (at least with the normal timetable) no need for additional Croydon to Gatwick services - that's covered by Thameslink and other Southern services - unless the aim is to add capacity to/from East Croydon. Nobody would deliberately aim for an airport terminator from East Croydon, they'd just take the next or most conveniently timed train.

Admittedly things are distorted by the after effects of Covid now, but I did travel from Clapham to Gatwick on several occasions between around 2016 and 2019 and found the long-distance services were frequently very crowded with a mix of 'regular' passengers and airport passengers (like myself), many with large luggage.

That was my rationale for a Gatwick shuttle, to keep the regular services out of Victoria less crowded. Admittedly (as I indicated) there is not really the need right now, but when airport traffic recovers I can see there might be. I will admit it would have to be frequent (e.g. 15 min) to be of any use though, so it would probably on second thoughts be an alternative suggestion to a 15-min interval Brighton fast/semi-fast service.

 

[Fincra5]

This arises from the current discussion on Gatwick Express, but is speculative so I'm placing it here.

Namely, given that GX is on long term suspension, could the paths be re-used for something else?

I note that two of the paths (xx00 and xx30) are currently being used for a fast-ish Brighton service, though it misses Clapham Junction; I would probably replace the Haywards Heath call with a Clapham call personally, as Haywards Heath has other fast services while Clapham has NO off-peak direct services to Brighton at all, for the first time since before 1981.

Could the xx15 and xx45 paths also be used for a (slighty slower) Brighton service maybe, to give a 15-min-interval fast or semi-fast service between Victoria and Brighton and extra capacity to Gatwick? Or, when Gatwick travel recovers (and given the dropping of Covid restrictions by several countries, perhaps this will be the coming summer) a non-premium-priced crowd-busting Gatwick shuttle, calling at Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

But GX Returns in April...

The GX's that used to terminate at Gatwick aren't running as the airport is down 2 platforms whilst parts are rebuilt...

 

[mmh]

Admittedly things are distorted by the after effects of Covid now, but I did travel from Clapham to Gatwick on several occasions between around 2016 and 2019 and found the long-distance services were frequently very crowded with a mix of 'regular' passengers and airport passengers (like myself), many with large luggage.

That was my rationale for a Gatwick shuttle, to keep the regular services out of Victoria less crowded. Admittedly (as I indicated) there is not really the need right now, but when airport traffic recovers I can see there might be.

Oh, I agree - I can see the benefit of a Clapham stop on Gatwick "fast" services for a big improvement on connections at Clapham. There'd be no realistic way to prevent it from being used by inbound commuters between Clapham and Victoria, but that's not really a problem - everyone from the airport is already aboard. And it is more attractive to airport passengers for a service to start / terminate there, and for the commuters too - they'd rather not have all the suitcases and lost people! It's a difficult problem to solve really, I think.

 

[cle]

Even adding those calls and keeping it otherwise 'Express' and terminating would help spread the Croydon-Victoria and Gatwick-Clapham passengers around a bit more.

Ideally same fares and marketing as Southern services, and there could longer term, be some kind of recast which evens it out a bit. And if one runs to Brighton and the other turns, or turns at Three Bridges perhaps - then that's fine. I'd love a Hove express too, or a Hove hourly TL - but no room.

 

[nw1]

Oh, I agree - I can see the benefit of a Clapham stop on Gatwick "fast" services for a big improvement on connections at Clapham. There'd be no realistic way to prevent it from being used by inbound commuters between Clapham and Victoria, but that's not really a problem - everyone from the airport is already aboard. And it is more attractive to airport passengers for a service to start / terminate there, and for the commuters too - they'd rather not have all the suitcases and lost people! It's a difficult problem to solve really, I think.

In many ways, replace GX with a regular-fare shuttle in roughly the same paths, calling at Clapham and probably East Croydon, using standard Southern-branded stock is what I am getting at.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This arises from the current discussion on Gatwick Express, but is speculative so I'm placing it here.

Namely, given that GX is on long term suspension, could the paths be re-used for something else?

I note that two of the paths (xx00 and xx30) are currently being used for a fast-ish Brighton service, though it misses Clapham Junction; I would probably replace the Haywards Heath call with a Clapham call personally, as Haywards Heath has other fast services while Clapham has NO off-peak direct services to Brighton at all, for the first time since before 1981.

Could the xx15 and xx45 paths also be used for a (slighty slower) Brighton service maybe, to give a 15-min-interval fast or semi-fast service between Victoria and Brighton and extra capacity to Gatwick? Or, when Gatwick travel recovers (and given the dropping of Covid restrictions by several countries, perhaps this will be the coming summer) a non-premium-priced crowd-busting Gatwick shuttle, calling at Clapham Junction and East Croydon?

Its resuming in April?? And the other two paths arent running due to a rebuild with 2 platforms down. So this thread is kind of pointless

 

[cle]

In many ways, replace GX with a regular-fare shuttle in roughly the same paths, calling at Clapham and probably East Croydon, using standard Southern-branded stock is what I am getting at.

Yep exactly my thinking. More part of the regular railway network, like say at Amsterdam. And with more evenly spread demand I wonder if it could ever hit 6tph evenly for Victoria, if there was ever a re-cast. Although there might be more, and not including Redhill/slows in that (admittedly more TL).

Its resuming in April?? And the other two paths arent running due to a rebuild with 2 platforms down. So this thread is kind of pointless

This is also thinking longer term, if they ever did the right thing and consolidated it all. If you don't like the thread, you don't have to engage with it?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yep exactly my thinking. More part of the regular railway network, like say at Amsterdam. And with more evenly spread demand I wonder if it could ever hit 6tph evenly for Victoria, if there was ever a re-cast. Although there might be more, and not including Redhill/slows in that (admittedly more TL).


This is also thinking longer term, if they ever did the right thing and consolidated it all. If you don't like the thread, you don't have to engage with it?

dont like that attitude.

 

[JonathanH]

Even adding those calls and keeping it otherwise 'Express' and terminating would help spread the Croydon-Victoria and Gatwick-Clapham passengers around a bit more.

There is plenty of capacity between Croydon and Victoria and between Gatwick and Clapham without contesting things by stopping Gatwick Express services at either location (except southbound contra flow in the morning peak).

If anything, the Gatwick Express paths should be left vacant to improve reliability of the other services.

 

[Kite159]

In my mind, keep the paths currently in use as Victoria to Brighton as Southern branded services. Although swap the call at Croydon with a call at Clapham (maybe marked as pick up only heading towards Brighton, similar to SWR from Waterloo).

Croydon - Gatwick has 4 nonstop Thameslink services an hour (as well as 4(?) Southern services).

Get rid of any premium as it isn't premium anymore.

If there is issues at Clapham then make the 4 coach Reigate trains run fast to Croydon, those are the ones which suffer from overcrowding.

 

[nw1]

Its resuming in April?? And the other two paths arent running due to a rebuild with 2 platforms down. So this thread is kind of pointless

Sorry, I wasn't aware of that, I got the impression from the other thread it was 'off' long term.

In any case I do think the thread has a point, to open up discussion on how best to use these paths. Arguably a premium-price service using non-premium stock (unlike the old 73-hauled services) on a rather congested line is using up paths which could be better used for something else, such as a non-premium-price version of the same thing operated under the Southern brand, and making stops at Clapham Junction (and perhaps East Croydon, though that has Thameslink so maybe not so critical) which is a key interchange point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

In my mind, keep the paths currently in use as Victoria to Brighton as Southern branded services. Although swap the call at Croydon with a call at Clapham (maybe marked as pick up only heading towards Brighton, similar to SWR from Waterloo).

Croydon - Gatwick has 4 nonstop Thameslink services an hour (as well as 4(?) Southern services).

Get rid of any premium as it isn't premium anymore.

If there is issues at Clapham then make the 4 coach Reigate trains run fast to Croydon, those are the ones which suffer from overcrowding.

I do seem to remember from a previous thread that there were issues in terms of how many trains could afford to stop at Clapham without pathing issues. I would agree that it would be better to run the 'branch line' services (Reigate and perhaps East Grinstead) fast through Clapham if it could allow the 'Gatwick Shuttle' to make the call instead - of all the services that pass through Clapham, I would guess the Reigates and East Grinsteads would contain the lowest number of passengers joining at Clapham and heading beyond Croydon.

On a related matter, are any fast Victoria-Brightons with Clapham calls coming back?

 

[JonathanH]

On a related matter, are any fast Victoria-Brightons with Clapham calls coming back?

Not with the reduction in rolling stock that is happening on the Southern network. Running separate trains to the two coast routes is a much better use of the paths and the rolling stock.

I would agree that it would be better to run the 'branch line' services (Reigate and perhaps East Grinstead) fast through Clapham if it could allow the 'Gatwick Shuttle' to make the call instead - of all the services that pass through Clapham, I would guess the Reigates and East Grinsteads would contain the lowest number of passengers joining at Clapham and heading beyond Croydon.

Prior to March 2020, there was quite a strong commuting pattern from the Clapham area to Redhill and Reigate and there are school flows to the East Grinstead line. Obviously the first of those isn't a thing any more but it would seem a little odd to have connections to places further afield and not to the nearer more commutable destinations.

 

[nw1]

Not with the reduction in rolling stock that is happening on the Southern network. Running separate trains to the two coast routes is a much better use of the paths and the rolling stock.

Prior to March 2020, there was quite a strong commuting pattern from the Clapham area to Redhill and Reigate and there are school flows to the East Grinstead line. Obviously the first of those isn't a thing any more but it would seem a little odd to have connections to places further afield and not to the nearer more commutable destinations.

I was thinking that, being larger places, there would be more usage from Clapham (as an interchange) to and from Brighton, Worthing, Eastbourne etc; I hadn't really considered Reigate/Redhill as a commute-to destination from London, I will admit. Obviously in an ideal world everything would call at Clapham, but was just trying to suggest some way of making the 'Gatwick Express' equivalent call at Clapham - to spread the load a bit on the Clapham-Gatwick flow. Admittedly there probably isn't much of a load right now, but thinking of when airport traffic picks up again.

But an alternative as I said to the 'shuttle' idea (if the traffic levels of 2016-19 on the existing Southern services do not come back) would be to ditch GX and use two of the paths (xx00 and xx30) to maintain a fast, non-GX-branded, non-premium-priced Brighton service such as the one operating at the moment (with Gatwick calls but ideally Clapham as well). Again, GX as it is, is not IMO the best use of those 4 paths.

 

[cle]

Places like Worthing and Eastbourne are incredibly marginal to the ex-London travel/economy. And places that far only need one London destination - like most other regions do.

Redhill and Reigate have colleges, jobs etc and are really outer ring - same as folks who counter-commute to Watford, Slough, Guildford etc

 

[Starmill]

Isn't all that's actually happening the stops at East Croydon and Haywards Heath are being removed and the service changed back to GX branding? There's no particular reason why they couldn't keep those two stops.

 

[infobleep]

Even adding those calls and keeping it otherwise 'Express' and terminating would help spread the Croydon-Victoria and Gatwick-Clapham passengers around a bit more.

Ideally same fares and marketing as Southern services, and there could longer term, be some kind of recast which evens it out a bit. And if one runs to Brighton and the other turns, or turns at Three Bridges perhaps - then that's fine. I'd love a Hove express too, or a Hove hourly TL - but no room.

There is room after 19:30, as there is no train to Cambridge. I'm referring to the x58 which doesn't run from Haywards Heath from 19:58 onwards.

If one wishes to get to Guildford, currently they can get the 19:53, which enables one to get the 20:29 from Gatwick Airport.

If that skips Haywards Heath with no time saving then one gets to get the 19:50, which gets into Gatwick Airport at 20:01, leaving one with a 28-minute wait.

That's excessive for such a short journey.

There is the 20:12, which is the one usually gets but as it arrives at Gatwick Airport at 20:23 it's not an official connection as you must allow 10 minutes to change your train

An x58 service would at least cut the wait down to 14 minutes.

 

[JonathanH]

There is room after 19:30, as there is no train to Cambridge. I'm referring to the x58 which doesn't run from Haywards Heath from 19:58 onwards.

If one wishes to get to Guildford, currently they can get the 19:53, which enables one to get the 20:29 from Gatwick Airport.

If that skips Haywards Heath with no time saving then one gets to get the 19:50, which gets into Gatwick Airport at 20:01, leaving one with a 28-minute wait.

That's excessive for such a short journey.

But that is just about lining up arrivals and departures at Gatwick Airport. Evening services have to be thinned out in some way as demand drops - it just happens that the Cambridge service is the one that gets removed - that isn't a reason to put a Victoria service in its place.

Passengers travelling from Haywards Heath to Guildford (which I accept you have a great interest in) is just one of the timetabling considerations for the service as a whole.

 

[infobleep]

But that is just about lining up arrivals and departures at Gatwick Airport. Evening services have to be thinned out in some way as demand drops - it just happens that the Cambridge service is the one that gets removed - that isn't a reason to put a Victoria service in its place.

Passengers travelling from Haywards Heath to Guildford (which I accept you have a great interest in) is just one of the timetabling considerations for the service as a whole.

There is a simple solution, drop the minimum connection time at Gatwick Airport to 6 minutes, like it is at places like Surbtion. I'd go for 5 minutes, like it is at East Croydon and Three Bridges but maybe that is considered to fine with the number of passengers that might use Gatwick Aiport when more people return, vers East Croydon.

 

[cle]

There is a simple solution, drop the minimum connection time at Gatwick Airport to 6 minutes, like it is at places like Surbtion. I'd go for 5 minutes, like it is at East Croydon and Three Bridges but maybe that is considered to fine with the number of passengers that might use Gatwick Aiport when more people return, vers East Croydon.

It's not an especially easy place for changing. I know it's being improved - so maybe that will factor in, but the legacy perspective and experience has been horrible. 5 mins with those crappy lifts, scant escalators, dark wayfinding, no info except back in the main departure hall etc etc etc... - not a station built for interchange.

 

[infobleep]

It's not an especially easy place for changing. I know it's being improved - so maybe that will factor in, but the legacy perspective and experience has been horrible. 5 mins with those crappy lifts, scant escalators, dark wayfinding, no info except back in the main departure hall etc etc etc... - not a station built for interchange.

Well, I was surprised to find an interchange at Reading for 7 minutes and that is bigger than at Gatwick Airport.

Perhaps that is a legacy interchange time.

 

[JonathanH]

Well, I was surprised to find an interchange at Reading for 7 minutes and that is bigger than at Gatwick Airport.

Perhaps that is a legacy interchange time.

The interchange times at Reading haven't been adjusted for the change of layout - platform 4 to platform 15 would represent a challenge for some people to complete in seven minutes (and anyone in three).

Gatwick is definitely more compact but has challenges of a different sort about queues for lifts and escalators which hopefully the current work is resolving.

 

[infobleep]

The interchange times at Reading haven't been adjusted for the change of layout - platform 4 to platform 15 would represent a challenge for some people to complete in seven minutes (and anyone in three).

Gatwick is definitely more compact but has challenges of a different sort about queues for lifts and escalators which hopefully the current work is resolving.

It's almost as if interchange times are set in stone. Anyway it is what it is.

Taking this back to topic, as much as if like a continues call at Hauwards Heath, if their is better statujb to call instead than do. Just don't skip stations with no time saving